| ▲ | matheusmoreira 3 hours ago |
| > Does this look nice to you? Yes, it does. It's exactly what I want my real life city to be like. No plants growing everywhere completely out of control and invading perimeters they aren't supposed to be in. No cracked pavement that's just a rainfall away from being replaced with potholes. Apparently, "soul" means a city that looks like it's unmaintained and teetering on the edge of a precipice, just about to be reclaimed by nature, a few years away from turning into the green urbanscape of The Last of Us. |
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| ▲ | tcdent 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| You're rejecting the behavior of both human nature and earthly nature in a naively idealistic manner. From the moment an object is constructed it is being pulled into the ground. Maintenance has a far higher cost than initial construction. Relative perfection is inversely proportionate to complexity. This is the exact same mentality that drives suburban lawn guys crazy when their grass has a brown spot. You are not fully in control. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > You're rejecting the behavior of both human nature and earthly nature Absolutely. The whole point of a city is to reject all that. > You are not fully in control. I know, which is why I don't bother with lawns. I'd rather fill the entire area with solar panels instead. | | |
| ▲ | JoshTriplett 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I know, which is why I don't bother with lawns. I'd rather fill the entire area with solar panels instead. Agreed. Or xeriscaping, or something better than grass (which is a really low bar to be better than). | |
| ▲ | HWR_14 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The whole point of a city is to allow large numbers of people to live in close proximity to each other. Everything else is a choice. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Who would choose to live in a decaying city? Broken down buildings, screwed up roads? This is stuff you grit your teeth and put up with because it can't be helped. Who would choose to design a city with this decay literally built into it? That's mind boggling. | | |
| ▲ | 9dev 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Literal millions of people live in New York, Athens, London, Berlin, Rome, and tons of other places with various grades of decay visible everywhere. That’s what we usually call a place having a soul. | |
| ▲ | kelseyfrog an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I just don't let it bother me that much, but to each their own. A city with rounded down corners feels lived in, comfortable even. | |
| ▲ | karmakurtisaani 20 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Choosing a decaying city might mean lower taxes. Or better health care. Or tax breaks for the elites. You know, things we choose as a collective. | | |
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| ▲ | lovich an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Absolutely. The whole point of a city is to reject all that. I didn’t realize cities were made with a point to reject entropy and weren’t mostly organic congregations of people for economic reasons | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Every single building is a rejection of entropy. We're literally carving out a secure and comfortable space for ourselves to exist inside. It's literally built to withstand and reject the elements, the chaos of the outside universe. Even the stereotypical jungle survivalists create structures to bend the surrounding environment to their benefit instead of allowing them environment to bend them. Structure is the antithesis of entropy. This is entirely orthogonal to economically efficient concentration. In fact, cities are an extension of it. We want to be safe and comfortable when we leave the buildings too. We don't want the cities to just look nice, we want architecture that makes our very souls feel safe and protected. We want facilities like well maintained sidewalks and roads so we can walk and drive with ease. This leads to economic efficiency. | | |
| ▲ | lovich 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Every single building is a rejection of entropy. No? It’s just a building. I’d doubt there’s more than a handful of buildings that were made by hands that were explicitly rejecting entropy and just doing what they needed/wanted in the moment. |
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| ▲ | bgun an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You seem like you’re on your way to becoming a billionaire, which is one of the worst things I can imagine saying about someone. | | |
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| ▲ | ndriscoll an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Speaking of naivete, you can actually live in a city where the sidewalks are maintained, not sinking into the ground, and where the buildings are washed/painted, where cables are buried, where there is no trash on the street, no graffiti, and where there aren't derelict boarded up buildings with overgrown weeds. Nice areas do exist. | |
| ▲ | RobRivera 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >naive Opinions be like "You disagree with me so I can label you in a negative light" | | |
| ▲ | tcdent 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Since when is naivety negative? You are born without knowledge. You acquire knowledge throughout existence. Seems pretty natural to me. | | |
| ▲ | JoshTriplett 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's unpleasant to accuse someone of being naive in a paternalistic fashion that implies "you're wrong, because you don't know any better, but if you knew better you'd agree with me". The post you replied to embodied a preference. You responded that they were wrong and naive for not wanting to depict cities constantly "being pulled into the ground". Some people playing a simulator do not want the simulator to force unavoidable decay everywhere. This is something for which there is room for a breadth of preferences, not something for which there is a correct and incorrect answer. | | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The state of being naive is not negative. The presumption of someone assuming "I think I am right and you are wrong and therefore I declare you to be naive" is a negative one. There are many traits that is perfectly fine to possess, but extremely rude/arrogant/negative/etc to declare as existing in someone else. |
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| ▲ | __MatrixMan__ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I find it comforting to be reminded that when this little experiment ends, Nature is still vigorous enough to take back over. If the clean lines we laid down were persistent, I'd worry we'd planted the seed of something poorly thought out yet permanent. |
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| ▲ | Philip-J-Fry 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it's just a matter of what people want from a city builder. Some people play the game to build the city they wish they had. While others play the game to build the city they've already got. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Others play to tame a hostile environment and turn it into a comfortable home that provides for every possible want or need. |
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| ▲ | JoshTriplett 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I had the same reaction. Like, add these effects for when your city simulation is simulating what happens when your city is being neglected. |
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| ▲ | simonklitj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nah, look at the second set of photos. It’s more lived-in, not all the way apocalyptic. The first photo looks like a render from an architect. |
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| ▲ | handoflixue 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There's sets where the second photo includes a huge amount of litter (10+ piles, each multiple objects). There's one where the author explicitly says they want run down buildings, and shows an example of a clean wall -vs- a dirty wall, and a clean wall -vs- one where the paint is decaying. But there are definitely others where it's lived-in, where it's adding trees and plants and even just parked cars. It's definitely a mixed bag | |
| ▲ | onemoresoop 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Absolutely the second version. The first version looks unrealistic and gets boring fast. Assuming the amount of degradation can be adjusted it's a no brainer to make use of it. In the real world the elements will degrade everything over time.. | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The second set of photos just have more detail. For example, the sidewalks are more detailed instead of just being flat rectangles. The glorification of disrepair and decay is still very much present though. "Soul" means decayed paint on houses, visible bricks and a huge hole on the pavement that no doubt spread its own unique flavor of disrepair to the car that just drove past it. Adding more detail is absolutely fine, but this glorification of breakdown doesn't sit well with me at all. I see far too much of it in real life on a daily basis and it seriously made me cringe. It's a problem to be solved, not something to be added in deliberately. | | |
| ▲ | itsalwaysgood 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Soul" means something has a story to tell. It was created for a purpose, it was useful, it may be near its end. There are very clear and obvious dimensions to it that help to immerse you into the game. Details to pick up on, some obvious and some not so obvious. The opposite, where everything is very clearly manicured, created, is so far from reality that the immersion is more difficult to achieve, or is quickly lost. You never stray far from the fact that you're playing a city game with very rigid rules. I think this is what the author means by "Soul": objects with details to show something lived, was paid attention to, has story, depth, and scars to prove it. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > "Soul" means something has a story to tell. That's not soul, that's just... History. Of neglect. Detail is fine, but deliberately adding disrepair and actually calling it nice is something else entirely. It implies this is desirable. Real "soul" would have been adding urban decay as a gameplay mechanic. Players would be stretched thin trying to keep up and some areas would naturally decay as a result. That's the realistic city story: I had limited time and resources, and couldn't afford to care about every part of the city, so the neglected ones decayed. This is the real story, the realistic one. Adding decay just because you like the aesthetic of it is something else. It's like adding CRT filters to modern games. | | |
| ▲ | itsalwaysgood an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | However you want to label it: you don't get a sense that anything living ever touched the little pixels you're moving around on the screen. There is no 'emotional tug' to help immerse you into the game. I do like your gameplay mechanic idea, but others may not. A quick filter may not add "soul" for you, but it might for others. It's about emotions and immersion, but it's all obviously illusion. | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | JoshTriplett 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | +1. Some of the added detail (e.g. more realistic-looking brick) looked great. Some of it was the kind of thing that better depicts "areas you've failed to maintain", iff you want your simulator to have those bits of verisimilitude. I'd be all for separating "better, more lifelike, more realistic rendering, with interesting variation" from "decay". | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | big flat rectangles isnt less detail. ive seen plenty of lots that look exactly like that with the surface being sort of a grippy stucko. adding detail would be texturing it to show the grit better breakdown and maintenance is a part of life, and if you want a city to look like it spends a million a month per block on maintenance, thats fine to have as a fantasy for a game. Youre playing a game, entropy doesnt have to apply. the post is right though, city games always put a layer of fantasy over one of the major costs that a city has - maintenance. i havent played one since sim city 3k, but i expect theres still no setting up snow clearance routes and how changing the order or amount of plows affects traffic, along with the associated costs to the city. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Decay could be interesting as a gameplay mechanic. Spend money on upkeep or your city turns into that. Neglect leading to decay is supposed to be a punishment though. Turning it into "soul" makes it desirable. |
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| ▲ | db48x 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think it could be tastefully done. Even well–maintained objects age in real life, and that is often part of the charm. Consider the 115 year old brick building in a town I used to live in, with the faded remnants of a 50 year old replica of the sign painted on the side by the butcher’s shop that originally owned the building. | |
| ▲ | pessimizer 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's a problem to be solved, not something to be added in deliberately. Yes, it's romanticizing decay to add thematic and realistic problems to games. |
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| ▲ | RobRivera 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Based citybuilder |
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| ▲ | throwaway27448 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > No plants growing everywhere completely out of control and invading perimeters they aren't supposed to be in. No cracked pavement that's just a rainfall away from being replaced with potholes. Fwiw this would certainly strike me as soulless. Haven't you ever seen pleasantville or don't worry darling? "Soul" to my ear implies imperfection. |
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| ▲ | swozey 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm so glad I finally encountered neighborhoods with all natural yards right in the middle of cities that make them so much nicer to walk through, apart from the bees. Instead we have to beg most big cities to install trees at $40k/pop so you aren't getting melted in the texas sun walking your dog. |
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| ▲ | boredtofears 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Apparently, "soul" means a city that looks like it's unmaintained and teetering on the edge of a precipice, just about to be reclaimed by nature That's exactly what a city is though. |