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▲ mort96 3 hours ago

[flagged]

▲bragr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would challenge you to point out exactly where in OP's comment that he advocates abolishing all taxes except land taxes. I see only a comparison to taxing land vs property.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's what Georgeism is?

▲larsiusprime an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Lars here. I run the Center for Land Economics with Greg (we wrote the OP blog post). We are not maximalist single taxers.

Henry George was obviously a Single Taxer, but "Georgism" has a generally broader meaning than that. Some Georgists are single taxers, but not all, including Greg and I.

When we talk to elected officials, we don't even talk about Henry George all that much (I did in the ACX article series because it all started with the progress and poverty book review). We mostly speak of "Land value return" and our focus is mostly on pragmatic revenue neutral tax shifts to LVT.

▲bragr 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And where do they advocate wholesale adoption of Georgeism? You can like one part of a theory without adopting it all.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If I start espousing the great ideas of economist Karl Marx in a long comment I will forgive you for assuming that I may be a bit of a Marxist unless my comment has clear caveats to the contrary.

▲kelnos 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Irrelevant. Argue with what a comment actually says and advocates for, not what you guess the commenter might believe.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The comment advocates for Georgeism. If they disagree they can say so and elaborate on which non-LVT taxes they support. They haven't because my read on them is correct.

▲bragr 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Karl Marx had a lot of great ideas that have been integrated into our modern liberal democracies (antitrust laws, labor unions, public schooling, etc). One can have a nuanced discussion of Das Kapital without being a communist. If you assume otherwise, that's your own cognitive blind spot.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I never said communist. But yes, you can pick and choose ideas from different thinkers. That said, what Nevermark wrote fits squarely within orthodox Georgeism.

They're free to prove me wrong by saying that they're in favour of sales tax or income tax or capital gains tax. That would prove to me that they're just taking the idea that "land value tax is good" without buying into Georgeism as a whole. But I'm confident we'll never see such a comment.

▲ajmurmann 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why care about wealth disparity at all as long as everyone is better off? If I offered you to double your real wealth but also Bezo's real wealth, would you reject that offer just because wealth disparity went up?

▲datsci_est_2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like Georgism, but I don't think it should be limited to just LVT. I think ownership of all natural resources (especially scarce ones) should be taxed at an aggressively progressive rate. Own one oil well? Cool. Own enough oil wells to supply the entirety of the Allied Forces throughout the duration of the European Theater in World War 2? Meh.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What if your only relationship with land is that you rent an apartment, but from that apartment you build a $10M/year revenue social network? How should that be taxed? Should it at all?

▲intrasight 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That would be income tax

▲mort96 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I believe they described a system in which only natural resources are taxed. That's how I read "Georgeism but applied to all natural resources, not just land value". Income is not a natural resource which is why I asked them how they think it should be taxed, if at all.

▲ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲kelnos 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

GP doesn't appear to be advocating for abolishing all tax. The thrust of it seems to be to abolish property tax and replace with a land value tax. There's no mention of abolishing income, capital gains, sales, use, etc. taxes.

Maybe don't attack a straw man you've stood up yourself?

▲ajmurmann 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm pretty certain Henry George would be very happy with pigovian taxes like a carbon tax as well.

Income tax it's definitely something he'd not prefer because it reduces incentive to do something we want you to do. Better to tax windfalls and undesirable things

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My understanding is that Georgism opposes the kinds of tax you mention.

▲kelnos 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Cool, but just bringing up Georgism doesn't mean the commenter wants to go all-in full Georgist. People can agree with part of a philosophy and not all of it. But we don't know, so we should assume good faith, read the comment charitably (per HN guidelines), and argue against what the commenter actually said, not what we might assume they believe.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Then they can clarify which other taxes they support.

▲kjshsh123 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think land value tax is good.

That doesn't mean LVT is a panacea.

I think that's a bit of a strawman and a false dichotomy.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't mind land value tax! Like you, I think it's one of many valid kinds of tax that a government can put on its citizens to achieve various social goals. Hence, I am not a Georgeist.

▲skzo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

why not?

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The onus is on you to describe some mechanism by which abolishing almost all taxation will magically fix wealth discrepancy.

▲kjshsh123 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know what degree "fixing" means.

You can tax certain things a certain amount and you get diminishing returns. For example, if you had a 50% wealth tax, it would stop collecting anything pretty quickly and would cause pretty big economic disruption.

Land value tax has the potential to collect a lot of money with less disruption.

There's like $20 trillion worth of capitalized land value in the USA. That could mean like $1 trillion a year on-going assuming 5% discounting. Land rent is a perpetual stream of wealth.

There's only $8 trillion billionaire wealth. So already 5%/year would be less. And there's a huge incentive and ability to avoid it by moving.

And I rarely ever even hear suggestions for wealth tax rates around 5%. So then if you had a wealth tax, well land is wealth, and you'd be leaving a ton on the table as you could still have the land value tax at 5% of the capitalized value.

That money could be spent on public services that poorer people will benefit from more like transit, schools, or even local hospitals and subsidized healthcare. A typical point by LVT supporters here is that these services have the impact of raising land rents.

Most taxes have this dynamic:

tax -> invest in public services poor people use -> land rents go up -> land owners benefit

LVT has this dynamic:

Tax land -> invest in public services poor people use -> land rent goes up -> tax land more so land owners don't benefit

Landlords, developers, builders etc. should earn the return on the constructed housing, not the land.

▲kraken_cult 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> There's like $20 trillion worth of capitalized land value in the USA. That could mean like $1 trillion a year on-going assuming 5% discounting. Land rent is a perpetual stream of wealth.

Leasing the land of the US? That's your big revelation?

listen to the other commenter, fixing it means reducing wealth disparity.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Fixing" means reducing economic disparity to some reasomable level.

▲kjshsh123 3 hours ago | parent [-]

And what is a reasonable level? And what evidence do you have that LVT can't achieve that? Maybe LVT creates such an increase in productivity it creates a virtuous cycle where land values increase so LVT increases and we can pay for so many public services and subsidies for the poor.

Idk but saying it's fixed when it's reasonable is really not answering the question.

▲mort96 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't have exact numbers for what "a reasonable level" is off hand, but "a heck of a lot lower than now" would be a great start.

Again, the onus is on you to describe a mechanism by which abolishing most forms of taxes will drastically reduce wealth discrepancy. I'm not arguing against LVT, you're the one who's arguing against everything that's not LVT.

▲kjshsh123 an hour ago | parent [-]

Tell me where I argued against everything that's not LVT lol

Again strawman and false dichotomy.

I can't help if you think LVT wouldn't reduce the disparity sufficiently. I'm saying that it's possible it does. I outlined the process how. You don't accept it that's fine. But I do think a big LVT would make a heck of a difference.

Again, that doesn't mean I'm against every and any other tax that could also make a difference.

▲kraken_cult 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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