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| ▲ | brianleb 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Could you define (or link) to what "Weizenbaum feed" means/references? Too obscure for me but I'm interested. Thanks. | | |
| ▲ | fweimer 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Likely a reference to ELIZA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA | | |
| ▲ | handoflixue an hour ago | parent [-] | | Are there really people that can't tell the difference between ELIZA and something that can solve open Millennium Prize Problems in math? | | |
| ▲ | esikich 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, AI threatens the folks who think that knowing how to write JavaScript or C makes them smart and being smart is their entire identity. | |
| ▲ | jsrozner 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It turns out, oddly enough, that it's possible for it to be both. AI can simultaneously be used to destroy the commons with slop and also make contributions to new math (though isn't the jury still out on whether part of the idea was stolen from human mathematicians?) | | | |
| ▲ | joquarky an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Their ego doesn't let them see the difference. | | |
| ▲ | mapontosevenths 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Or perhaps their wallets. There are a lot of programmers here. Some of them think that AI is the death of their profession, rather than a change in it. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair | | |
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| ▲ | trial3 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | humorously, my regular iPhone on a residential home network failed the cloudflare AI bot detection and i can’t read that article | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | People don't believe me that Cloudflare blocks more humans than bots. They see in the dashboard "number of bots blocked" and it's like their brain turns off. | | |
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| ▲ | ben_w 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What's the old quote from WW2? I couldn't help but notice how each successive headline reporting our glorious victories seemed to draw closer to Tokyo.
Something like that.Well. I can't help but notice how each successive headline reporting how this "scam"/stochastic parrot/"scare quotes intelligence" seems to be solving more and more things that were but a few years ago widely regarded as being indicators of high intelligence. Being highly convinving is one of the things on that list. | | |
| ▲ | moth11 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Nobody is denying that it's effective. They're denying intelligence A programming contest has a problem where given N < 10000, do something hard like come up with the number of primes less than N You can come up with all sorts of algorithms that do intelligent things. But the most effective solution is to use metaprogramming to make a massive switch statement that contains all the answers | | |
| ▲ | fasterik 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are they denying intelligence, or are they redefining it in such a way that only humans can be intelligent? Can you come up with a definition of intelligence that would apply to crows and ant colonies, which are obviously intelligent to some degree, but not the current generation of AI systems? | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Nobody knows what intelligence is. We've recently discovered a lot of things that it isn't. | | |
| ▲ | fasterik 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Intelligence is a word we invent to describe things we see in nature. We don't "discover" intelligence like it's some natural resource. To say we know nothing about it is also a bit strange. Cognitive science has been studying it for decades. Of course it's hard to give a precise definition, but it's related to capabilities like abstraction, reasoning, planning, problem solving, etc. | |
| ▲ | infinite_spin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why would a set of dictionary definitions not suffice? | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those are distillations of existing knowledge. They are necessarily behind the status quo. "You can't call this newfangled contraption a computer, because a computer is a person!" | | |
| ▲ | handoflixue an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > They are necessarily behind the status quo. That seems like a really bizarre way to describe a tool that solved an open Millennium Prize Problem. They are, empirically and repeatedly, ahead of the status quo. So if your argument depends on them being behind the status quo, reality has already disproven it multiple times over. | |
| ▲ | infinite_spin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Those are distillations of existing knowledge. Definitions are "formal statements of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc" (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/definition) > They are necessarily behind the status quo. The existing state or condition would be what is written in the dictionary, not whatever personal definitions you've constructed. > "You can't call this newfangled contraption a computer, because a computer is a person!" Seems like a straw man. A computer is not a mammal, no matter how much you twist a set of definitions. | | |
| ▲ | quicklime 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > A computer is not a mammal, no matter how much you twist a set of definitions. I’m not the person you replied to, but I believe they’re referring to the occupation of “computer”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation) So yes, at one time all computers were mammals. The people who write dictionaries generally take a descriptivist approach, that’s why slang terms enter the dictionary after they start to become popular. The state of the art of human knowledge would be another step ahead of the common use of any language. | | |
| ▲ | infinite_spin 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's an interesting take, and I can see how "computer" could refer to a human a hundred years ago, but they also mentioned "status quo", which should indicate that a reasonable person should use a modern definition. | | |
| ▲ | quicklime 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Again I’m not the person who wrote the comment, but I think they were exaggerating for effect and maybe lost the audience in doing so. While “computer” has meant the same thing for many decades now, the term “intelligence” really does seem like a moving goalpost? |
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| ▲ | ben_w 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How many examples you need to get good. Don't misunderstand: I'm happy saying AI models "think"
or "have learned a thing", and for in-context learning I'd call them smart even by this definition… …but also, any living creature that needed as many examples as machine learning currently needs, would starve to death before figuring out how to eat. While training, machine learning processes (not just LLMs, also applies to e.g.
self driving cars), are really really stupid and only make up for this by being really really stupid really really fast. To what I wrote upthread: the "victories" of humanity over
machine keep getting closer, but we have yet to wake up one day in great confusion as we find an entire city is no longer in communication with anyone, nor finding ourselves in a state of utter disbelief when the reports come in that the city stopped communicating because it is entirely gone. | | |
| ▲ | keypusher 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Millions of years of evolutionary knowledge hard-coded into human systems, then it still takes 15+ years of us learning by example before we start to come online and be able to generalize solutions from a limited set of examples. I'm not sure this is as strong of an argument as you think it is. It also doesn't really matter when "we are trained differently" has no direct bearing on the end result. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | We invented controlled fire perhaps a million years ago; at a generation gap of 25 years, that's 40,000 opportunities for evolution to pass on a mutation that does anything. Written language is around 210 generations old, the capacity to read and write isn't present in our nearest living relatives amongst the primates, and our various languages are wildly different to each other: the skill itself isn't evolved, though the capacity to learn the skill is. If humans learned like ML systems learn, (biblical) Methuselah would still have been failing the Sally-Anne test on his supposed deathbed at 969 years old, like some of the smaller early LLMs did. > It also doesn't really matter when "we are trained differently" has no direct bearing on the end result. The question was to ask for a definition such that AI could still count as "not smart" compared to humans. This fits. It's also why they're spiky intelligences, which I'm happily using right now to write code for me, but also do not trust in the slightest to identify the weeds in my garden. These submarines sure do swim fast*, but they're also very much disqualified for the Olympics. * https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra#1980s |
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| ▲ | fasterik 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If we're including the training process and not just the final product, why shouldn't we include the billions of years of natural selection encoded in DNA sequences? | | |
| ▲ | godelski 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We do. There's a lot of innate knowledge but all neuroscience demonstrates how incredibly flexible the brain is. Brains constantly learn and rewire. Here's a few things that I think show how crazy it is AND stress those points - people that have had corpus callosotomy (brain cut in half) *may* be indistinguishable from a normal person. Depends on how young you were when you underwent the procedure
- true for most brain injuries
- can even include the frontal cortex
- you can learn to ecolocate
- people with Aphantasia are indistinguishable from others
- people without an internal monologue are indistinguishable from those with one
- people can learn to use prosthetics
- even without disabilities
- or look into MRI scans with tool use
You can convince yourself that we're just organic robots (after all, there's no magic), but you would be a fool to convince yourself we're the ordinary kind.We are constantly learning. You aren't just born with your knowledge and it stays static. We are extremely proficient at metalearning (learning how to learn, few shot learning, zero shot learning [0,1]). Our brains are constantly rewiring, able to heal from traumatic damage. I could go on and on. Does information pass down through genetics? Of course! But that's far from the whole story. I'm tired of people trying to make AI sentient by making humans robotic. Stop trying to trivialize everything and be okay not knowing the answer to everything. You're human, you're designed to learn and explore, not sit and argue from an armchair [0] and I mean these in the original sense. Not in the sense that you train on a billion examples of labeled animals and then congratulate yourself on your ImageNet-1k held out test performance. That's not zero shot, that's just a test set [1] I can literally make up words and you'll understand them. Or use words in novel ways. That's literally how slang works and how new words come to be. Don't be a walibanut ya glufus. Read some SciFi | |
| ▲ | ben_w 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because our evolutionary environment doesn't contain cars, poetry, calculus, Star Craft, hamburgers, touch screen computers, or doors, and yet we are able to learn these things with (relative to a computer) very few examples. Most of the effort of evolution was making cells work at all, and even then it's a bit weird, e.g. no plant or animal produces vitamin B12 and we all get this from some bacteria and archaea. And evolution is kinda hard to time right: bacteria can reproduce in minutes, humans in decades, but only mutations that survive reproduction can be passed on. This makes it even starker as a difference: bacteria had order of 1e13 generations to become multicellular, while human DNA had about 40,000 generations to cope with fire, 220 generations for evolution to do anything with the invention of the wheel, and one generation to cope with the invention of Minecraft. The analogy here would be: DNA is to our brains like a VN replicator bootstrapping a computer all the way up to a bare-metal-no-OS untrained model, and perhaps a few crude "hard coded" modules like a smiling-face-detector. It's a lot, but it's also missing a lot. If biology used the models and training processes that are state of the art in ML, it would take around a millennia to talk like a child and still fail the Sally-Anne test, and million years or so to pass a degree. | | |
| ▲ | fasterik 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you're underestimating how much knowledge about the world is encoded in human DNA, especially in the structure of the human brain at birth. It also depends how we count the "operations" used to train a human adult, even if we ignore the evolutionary history. I'm still going to deny the premise of your argument, becasue I think we should define intelligence in terms of capabilities. If a system can discover a cure for cancer or solve P vs. NP, it doesn't matter how many FLOPs it took to train. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w an hour ago | parent [-] | | I can literally point to how much information is encoded in our DNA, because it's four bases (so 2 bits per base pair) and ~3.1 billion base pairs. 6.2 gigabits total, or slightly less than 1 gigabyte. A 1 gigabyte LLM isn't going to impress anyone with what it can do. About 99% (depends who you ask) of our DNA is shared with our nearest primates. Like us, they can learn to use touch screens, but also like us they won't find touch screens in their natural environment. Dogs can be taught to drive cars (just about), but again, not natural environment. > I'm still going to deny the premise of your argument, becasue I think we should define intelligence in terms of capabilities. If a system can discover a cure for cancer or solve P vs. NP, it doesn't matter how many FLOPs it took to train. We can define it in either way. I think both are valid, because plenty of people mean each of these two things when discussing AI in particular. As I referenced in the other branch, these submarines sure can swim fast. But at the same time, they have a lot of gaps. This is because some experience needs the real world: just as nine women can't make a baby in one month, a transistor running a million times faster than a synapse can't make a month-long cancer experiment happen in 2.6 seconds. This dependency on data, and that state of the art ML is bad in specifically this way, is why Tesla's self-driving cars, despite having had around a trillion miles of real-world experience today, still come with steering wheels (even at least some of the Cybercabs, despite the big thing of this model supposedly being not needing them, though with Musk and his promises you should only count the Cybercabs when they actually ship and not just press releases). | | |
| ▲ | fasterik an hour ago | parent [-] | | Note I used the word knowledge, not information. A random string can also contain 1 gigabyte of information. Imagine an alien that matches your abilities across every domain, but has a 10 billion year training period, something many orders of magnitude more expensive than an LLM. I simply don't believe that alien is less intelligent than you. We also don't expect humans to be competent in every domain. Most humans suck at most things. We will usually call someone intelligent if they excel at solving problems in one or two narrow domains. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 44 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Information is an upper bound on knowledge. > 10 billion year training period, something many orders of magnitude more expensive than an LLM. I'm saying both definitions are valid definitions, they both point to important and different things: skill now, vs. how hard it is to get new skills. Some would describe it as "crystallised intelligence vs fluid intelligence". I think it's important that any arguments are over the thing in dispute, not the label for that thing. Don't mistake the map for the territory. Anyone who says "AI is stupid" by the first definition, what it can do, I think is making an error: they are already wildly super-human in at least some areas, if not generally. Anyone who says "AI is stupid" by the second definition, how many examples they need, I agree with: there is a lot they are not currently able to learn even though it is easy for us, because the data they would need to do the learning on does not exist at the scale they need. Also note: examples, not years. An alien intelligence whose synapses trigger 10 times faster or slower than mine (or ten million times faster or slower than mine), but who gets as much as I do out of each book or conversation, is my equal by the second definition. | | |
| ▲ | fasterik 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn't say that information is an upper bound on knowledge because we don't measure knowledge in bits. The number of possible sequences of N bits is 2^N and knowledge involves selecting the sequences that are useful in some way. I don't know how to quantify it, but in principle it could be much larger than N. I don't think I agree with your characterization of the second definition. Time scales matter. It's not much use to be able to solve human-scale problems if it takes millennia. And it only takes months to train an LLM to the level that it can solve cutting-edge math problems. |
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| ▲ | lambdaone 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is classic AI goalposts-moving. OK, they can play chess, but that's not real AI - can they write poems?
OK, they can write poems, but that's not real AI - can they compose music?
OK, they can compose music, but that's not real AI - can they translate languages?
OK, they can translate text, but can they do maths?
OK, they can do maths, but can they solve a Millenium Prize? <-- we are here |
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| ▲ | mopsi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It was Berlin and not Tokyo, I believe. Germany kept producing newsreels until the very end. Many of them are now on Youtube, a very interesting watch on how to frame things positively. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've heard many variants; Paris in an earlier war, too. I try to keep an open mind about propaganda fooling me today; the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves. | | |
| ▲ | godelski an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > the people who were fooled in the past often were not fools themselves.
I think this can't be said enough. Propaganda's greatest weapon is making you think you are immune to it. Maybe some, but so much is propaganda. We all fall for propaganda (and ads), constantlyBeing fooled doesn't make you a fool. But being unwilling to change your mind does. Being unable to admit you don't know or don't have enough information to make a strong opinion makes you a fool too. Propaganda wants to take shortcuts, to simplify things. To trivialize. "It's so easy, you just..." because the fool is the person who already knows, the person who has nothing to learn, the person who thinks they're better than everybody else. | |
| ▲ | dylan604 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the past, there were not the avenues of finding alternate sources for news. While those avenues are present today, it also allows for additional sources for propaganda. So are we any better today or not??? | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Not. A thousand cable channels all licensed by a government, is much the same as five broadcast channels licensed by the same government. A million YouTubers grinding The Algorithm while secretly sponsored by various world governments, isn't much different to a thousand well-placed gossipers secretly sponsored by various world governments. |
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| ▲ | fiu10 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We need a downfall parody: "Hitler uses Openclaw". |
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| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wow, that quote goes hard. I’m reminded that almost no one beyond a select few knew high up in the military and around the emperor knew how badly the Japanese were defeated at Midway. Paternalistic. Arrogant. Shameful. And deeply engrained in the Japanese cultural zeitgeist (of the early-mid 20th century). Edit: I guess it’s commonly attributed to a German citizen, but their cultures mirrored each other. Fascism falling under the weight of its own propaganda. |
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| ▲ | gxs 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or both, you know. An intelligence that also spies on you Why is it so black and white? | | |
| ▲ | spying_lg_tv 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | How are you so dumb at this point in the game? It’s not “intelligent”… | | |
| ▲ | gxs an hour ago | parent [-] | | Create a new account to be able to say what you just said Your kind is what makes the internet shit, not AI |
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| ▲ | kltlp 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is the best retort to the bag-escaping cat ever: https://gowers.wordpress.com/2026/09/17/why-i-didnt-sign-the... "Nothing is worse to the demise of a society, than people who want to convince you that the cat is out of the bag and will not go back in, while the cat is being violently shook out of the bag at the same time." | | |
| ▲ | GolfPopper 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A great quote, thank you for sharing. It captures much of the five stages of denial (summarized below) in a much pithier form. There's nothing in the bag. The cat will never get out of the bag. It wouldn't be a problem if the cat was out of the bag. We cannot possibly keep the cat in the bag. Putting the cat back in the bag is not worth trying. | |
| ▲ | anonymous908213 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Motion to start a political platform for cats in bags. Our message is simple: Put the cat in the bag. Keep the cat in the bag. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Don't force it out of the bag if it doesn't want to leave. | | |
| ▲ | rapind 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > if it doesn't want to leave. This is where the lawyers find the loophole to get the cat out of the bag. | | |
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| ▲ | ok123456 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, the greatest is from the Sweet Smell of Success: "The cat's in the bag. And the bag's in the river." | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And the river's in the canyon and the canyon's in the plateau and the plateau's in the volcanic shield and the green grass grows all around, all around, and the green grass grows all around. |
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| ▲ | mat_b 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It’s a real tragedy of the commons Seems more like a real tragedy of private enterprise. We used to assume that the surveillance world would be built by government (1984). But it turned out to be equally likely to be built by the free market. | | |
| ▲ | sssilver 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Turns out the entities you control / regulate less, tend to do things that are less in your interest and more in their own. | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The government has few uses for total surveillance, and almost all are obviously bad. Private enterprise has a million uses, most of them various degree of bad, but as a society we've been blind to this kind of badness for many decades now - for at least as long as lying in the face of your fellow humans and trying to hurt them materially has been considered a respectable profession. | |
| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, currently the free market is the government, while the nominal government is something less powerful than that. |
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| ▲ | mitxela 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, some people care and some don't. The people who care don't get to work on the technology. | |
| ▲ | brookst 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm pretty unhappy with this, but are ChatGPT or Facebook really "the commons"? | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They're each in different grey areas that were previously the commons. Facebook didn't invent "talking to friends" or "showing adverts", but made
itself "the place" hard enough most of the advertisers and most of the people intermediate through it. OpenAI didn't invent "asking questions and recieving answers", not even "from an agent who knows which sites to search on your behalf"; but it is competent enough that I might have it read 50 times as many pages in a day as I myself would have read, and the sites' owners don't get real eyeballs looking at ads during this. (In my case, adblock even if I did it manually; but apply this massive increase in page hits to everyone who has their LLM research stuff). | |
| ▲ | clickety_clack 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think the internet in general is a commons and I should be able to browse it without being spied on. There should be general standards for what individual apps and websites should be allowed to do. There should be an expectation that the purpose of an app is what it does, i.e. a social connection app shouldn’t be an ad platform that suffers users insofar as they provide useful data to sell to advertisers. | |
| ▲ | nilamo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Common people work there and built the tools. At any point, they could have chosen not to. Or told the boss guy it wasn't plausible. At the end of the day, we're choosing and building the world we're in, while also loudly complaining about what we choose to do. Blaming a corporation takes away all the agency the workforce has. | |
| ▲ | applfanboysbgon 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think any free platform with a billion people on it is, de facto, a commons. It would be great if we as a society acknowledged this and had come up with some better means of stewardship because the status quo is obviously heinous, but we've been happy to hand over absolute control of public discourse to a few trillion dollar tech companies. |
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| ▲ | bluefirebrand 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It blows my mind that people don’t care about the world they are building with this stuff. It’s a real tragedy of the commons. When I ask people about things like this, I hear a lot of "If I don't build it, someone else will" My goal isn't just to refuse to build this stuff, it is actively to resist the people who are. I don't have much influence though | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your issue is you are defining spyware too broadly. This is not spying on users, but rather 2 companies partnering and sharing data to result in either a better ads system or better understanding on how ads are performing. This is a positive value to society and the commons. Wasting space in a site or app with an ad that won't convert is the true tragedy of the commons. It's a waste of time and money for all parties involved. | | |
| ▲ | infinitezest 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Can't you see? We're just trying to build a better cigarette! Flavored to your specific tastes! You'll thank us, you'll see! | |
| ▲ | c22 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No ad has ever converted me yet the ad networks keep showing me ads. |
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