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moth11 4 hours ago

Nobody is denying that it's effective. They're denying intelligence

A programming contest has a problem where given N < 10000, do something hard like come up with the number of primes less than N

You can come up with all sorts of algorithms that do intelligent things. But the most effective solution is to use metaprogramming to make a massive switch statement that contains all the answers

janalsncm 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

On your particular point about finding the most “effective” solution, this is something that I expect agents to be very good at.

When AI does it we call it “reward hacking” but when humans do it we call them clever.

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are they denying intelligence, or are they redefining it in such a way that only humans can be intelligent? Can you come up with a definition of intelligence that would apply to crows and ant colonies, which are obviously intelligent to some degree, but not the current generation of AI systems?

ben_w 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How many examples you need to get good.

Don't misunderstand: I'm happy saying AI models "think" or "have learned a thing", and for in-context learning I'd call them smart even by this definition…

…but also, any living creature that needed as many examples as machine learning currently needs, would starve to death before figuring out how to eat.

While training, machine learning processes (not just LLMs, also applies to e.g. self driving cars), are really really stupid and only make up for this by being really really stupid really really fast.

To what I wrote upthread: the "victories" of humanity over machine keep getting closer, but we have yet to wake up one day in great confusion as we find an entire city is no longer in communication with anyone, nor finding ourselves in a state of utter disbelief when the reports come in that the city stopped communicating because it is entirely gone.

keypusher 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Millions of years of evolutionary knowledge hard-coded into human systems, then it still takes 15+ years of us learning by example before we start to come online and be able to generalize solutions from a limited set of examples. I'm not sure this is as strong of an argument as you think it is. It also doesn't really matter when "we are trained differently" has no direct bearing on the end result.

ben_w 2 hours ago | parent [-]

We invented controlled fire perhaps a million years ago; at a generation gap of 25 years, that's 40,000 opportunities for evolution to pass on a mutation that does anything. Written language is around 210 generations old, the capacity to read and write isn't present in our nearest living relatives amongst the primates, and our various languages are wildly different to each other: the skill itself isn't evolved, though the capacity to learn the skill is.

If humans learned like ML systems learn, (biblical) Methuselah would still have been failing the Sally-Anne test on his supposed deathbed at 969 years old, like some of the smaller early LLMs did.

> It also doesn't really matter when "we are trained differently" has no direct bearing on the end result.

The question was to ask for a definition such that AI could still count as "not smart" compared to humans. This fits.

It's also why they're spiky intelligences, which I'm happily using right now to write code for me, but also do not trust in the slightest to identify the weeds in my garden. These submarines sure do swim fast*, but they're also very much disqualified for the Olympics.

* https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra#1980s

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If we're including the training process and not just the final product, why shouldn't we include the billions of years of natural selection encoded in DNA sequences?

godelski 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We do.

There's a lot of innate knowledge but all neuroscience demonstrates how incredibly flexible the brain is. Brains constantly learn and rewire.

Here's a few things that I think show how crazy it is AND stress those points

  - people that have had corpus callosotomy (brain cut in half) *may* be indistinguishable from a normal person. Depends on how young you were when you underwent the procedure
    - true for most brain injuries
    - can even include the frontal cortex
  - you can learn to ecolocate
  - people with Aphantasia are indistinguishable from others
  - people without an internal monologue are indistinguishable from those with one
  - people can learn to use prosthetics
    - even without disabilities
    - or look into MRI scans with tool use
You can convince yourself that we're just organic robots (after all, there's no magic), but you would be a fool to convince yourself we're the ordinary kind.

We are constantly learning. You aren't just born with your knowledge and it stays static. We are extremely proficient at metalearning (learning how to learn, few shot learning, zero shot learning [0,1]). Our brains are constantly rewiring, able to heal from traumatic damage.

I could go on and on. Does information pass down through genetics? Of course! But that's far from the whole story.

I'm tired of people trying to make AI sentient by making humans robotic. Stop trying to trivialize everything and be okay not knowing the answer to everything. You're human, you're designed to learn and explore, not sit and argue from an armchair

[0] and I mean these in the original sense. Not in the sense that you train on a billion examples of labeled animals and then congratulate yourself on your ImageNet-1k held out test performance. That's not zero shot, that's just a test set

[1] I can literally make up words and you'll understand them. Or use words in novel ways. That's literally how slang works and how new words come to be. Don't be a walibanut ya glufus. Read some SciFi

ben_w 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because our evolutionary environment doesn't contain cars, poetry, calculus, Star Craft, hamburgers, touch screen computers, or doors, and yet we are able to learn these things with (relative to a computer) very few examples.

Most of the effort of evolution was making cells work at all, and even then it's a bit weird, e.g. no plant or animal produces vitamin B12 and we all get this from some bacteria and archaea.

And evolution is kinda hard to time right: bacteria can reproduce in minutes, humans in decades, but only mutations that survive reproduction can be passed on. This makes it even starker as a difference: bacteria had order of 1e13 generations to become multicellular, while human DNA had about 40,000 generations to cope with fire, 220 generations for evolution to do anything with the invention of the wheel, and one generation to cope with the invention of Minecraft.

The analogy here would be: DNA is to our brains like a VN replicator bootstrapping a computer all the way up to a bare-metal-no-OS untrained model, and perhaps a few crude "hard coded" modules like a smiling-face-detector. It's a lot, but it's also missing a lot. If biology used the models and training processes that are state of the art in ML, it would take around a millennia to talk like a child and still fail the Sally-Anne test, and million years or so to pass a degree.

fasterik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think you're underestimating how much knowledge about the world is encoded in human DNA, especially in the structure of the human brain at birth. It also depends how we count the "operations" used to train a human adult, even if we ignore the evolutionary history.

I'm still going to deny the premise of your argument, becasue I think we should define intelligence in terms of capabilities. If a system can discover a cure for cancer or solve P vs. NP, it doesn't matter how many FLOPs it took to train.

ben_w 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I can literally point to how much information is encoded in our DNA, because it's four bases (so 2 bits per base pair) and ~3.1 billion base pairs. 6.2 gigabits total, or slightly less than 1 gigabyte.

A 1 gigabyte LLM isn't going to impress anyone with what it can do.

About 99% (depends who you ask) of our DNA is shared with our nearest primates. Like us, they can learn to use touch screens, but also like us they won't find touch screens in their natural environment. Dogs can be taught to drive cars (just about), but again, not natural environment.

> I'm still going to deny the premise of your argument, becasue I think we should define intelligence in terms of capabilities. If a system can discover a cure for cancer or solve P vs. NP, it doesn't matter how many FLOPs it took to train.

We can define it in either way. I think both are valid, because plenty of people mean each of these two things when discussing AI in particular. As I referenced in the other branch, these submarines sure can swim fast.

But at the same time, they have a lot of gaps. This is because some experience needs the real world: just as nine women can't make a baby in one month, a transistor running a million times faster than a synapse can't make a month-long cancer experiment happen in 2.6 seconds.

This dependency on data, and that state of the art ML is bad in specifically this way, is why Tesla's self-driving cars, despite having had around a trillion miles of real-world experience today, still come with steering wheels (even at least some of the Cybercabs, despite the big thing of this model supposedly being not needing them, though with Musk and his promises you should only count the Cybercabs when they actually ship and not just press releases).

fasterik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Note I used the word knowledge, not information. A random string can also contain 1 gigabyte of information.

Imagine an alien that matches your abilities across every domain, but has a 10 billion year training period, something many orders of magnitude more expensive than an LLM. I simply don't believe that alien is less intelligent than you.

We also don't expect humans to be competent in every domain. Most humans suck at most things. We will usually call someone intelligent if they excel at solving problems in one or two narrow domains.

ben_w an hour ago | parent [-]

Information is an upper bound on knowledge.

> 10 billion year training period, something many orders of magnitude more expensive than an LLM.

I'm saying both definitions are valid definitions, they both point to important and different things: skill now, vs. how hard it is to get new skills. Some would describe it as "crystallised intelligence vs fluid intelligence".

I think it's important that any arguments are over the thing in dispute, not the label for that thing. Don't mistake the map for the territory.

Anyone who says "AI is stupid" by the first definition, what it can do, I think is making an error: they are already wildly super-human in at least some areas, if not generally.

Anyone who says "AI is stupid" by the second definition, how many examples they need, I agree with: there is a lot they are not currently able to learn even though it is easy for us, because the data they would need to do the learning on does not exist at the scale they need.

Also note: examples, not years. An alien intelligence whose synapses trigger 10 times faster or slower than mine (or ten million times faster or slower than mine), but who gets as much as I do out of each book or conversation, is my equal by the second definition.

fasterik 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

I wouldn't say that information is an upper bound on knowledge because we don't measure knowledge in bits. The number of possible sequences of N bits is 2^N and knowledge involves selecting the sequences that are useful in some way. I don't know how to quantify it, but in principle it could be much larger than N.

I don't think I agree with your characterization of the second definition. Time scales matter. It's not much use to be able to solve human-scale problems if it takes millennia. And it only takes months to train an LLM to the level that it can solve cutting-edge math problems.

mitxela 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody knows what intelligence is. We've recently discovered a lot of things that it isn't.

fasterik 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Intelligence is a word we invent to describe things we see in nature. We don't "discover" intelligence like it's some natural resource. To say we know nothing about it is also a bit strange. Cognitive science has been studying it for decades. Of course it's hard to give a precise definition, but it's related to capabilities like abstraction, reasoning, planning, problem solving, etc.

4fddd3 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What we know is intelligence is definitely comprised of the trait of adaptability.

E.g. humans get exposed to new LLM model - yeah its powerful - 1 week later - eh, that thing? Yeah it's whatever. I'm still employed.

The human's ability to adapt so efficiently is mind-boggling - so much so it pi1sses sam altman and dario off.

infinite_spin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would a set of dictionary definitions not suffice?

mitxela 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Those are distillations of existing knowledge. They are necessarily behind the status quo. "You can't call this newfangled contraption a computer, because a computer is a person!"

handoflixue 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> They are necessarily behind the status quo.

That seems like a really bizarre way to describe a tool that solved an open Millennium Prize Problem. They are, empirically and repeatedly, ahead of the status quo.

So if your argument depends on them being behind the status quo, reality has already disproven it multiple times over.

mitxela 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

I wasn't aware a dictionary definition solved a Millennium Prize problem. Which one and how?

infinite_spin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Those are distillations of existing knowledge.

Definitions are "formal statements of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc" (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/definition)

> They are necessarily behind the status quo.

The existing state or condition would be what is written in the dictionary, not whatever personal definitions you've constructed.

> "You can't call this newfangled contraption a computer, because a computer is a person!"

Seems like a straw man. A computer is not a mammal, no matter how much you twist a set of definitions.

quicklime an hour ago | parent [-]

> A computer is not a mammal, no matter how much you twist a set of definitions.

I’m not the person you replied to, but I believe they’re referring to the occupation of “computer”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)

So yes, at one time all computers were mammals.

The people who write dictionaries generally take a descriptivist approach, that’s why slang terms enter the dictionary after they start to become popular.

The state of the art of human knowledge would be another step ahead of the common use of any language.

infinite_spin an hour ago | parent [-]

That's an interesting take, and I can see how "computer" could refer to a human a hundred years ago, but they also mentioned "status quo", which should indicate that a reasonable person should use a modern definition.

mitxela 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Imagine you're the first one to invent a digital electronic computer. You call it a computer, and I go on Tinkerer News and post (by carrier pigeon) "ummm akshully computers are people????" - which one of us would be adding value and which one subtracting it?

quicklime an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Again I’m not the person who wrote the comment, but I think they were exaggerating for effect and maybe lost the audience in doing so. While “computer” has meant the same thing for many decades now, the term “intelligence” really does seem like a moving goalpost?

infinite_spin 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think it's only a moving goalpost if you can show that the goalpost has moved with a new definition that fits our current usage of it. The people saying "this isn't intelligence", and then claim "we don't even know what intelligence is", are encouraged to offer such a definition.

lambdaone 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is classic AI goalposts-moving.

OK, they can play chess, but that's not real AI - can they write poems? OK, they can write poems, but that's not real AI - can they compose music? OK, they can compose music, but that's not real AI - can they translate languages? OK, they can translate text, but can they do maths? OK, they can do maths, but can they solve a Millenium Prize? <-- we are here

janalsncm 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Imagine meeting a person who could do all of those things.

“I once met a person who could beat any grandmaster in chess, translate any language, and complete international math Olympiad problems. He couldn’t solve any Millenium problems though, so I’d say he was a midwit at best.”