| ▲ | patrickmay 5 hours ago |
| From TFA: "Eric Schwitzgebel writes that . . . There’s a huge cognitive difference between nodding along while reading something and actually productively generating a text. Two reasons: First, once the text is on the page, it’s easy to passively let the approximate word suffice, rather than thinking about word choice in the same effortful, active way we do when generating prose de novo. Second, as I suggested above, I doubt that human beings, even experts, have a good sense of all the factors that shape word choice -- everything they’re being sensitive to. You would have phrased it slightly differently, and even if you don’t know that, or why, a different signal is sent and received." This is the best articulation I've seen of why simply reviewing and copy-editing does not provide remotely the same value as writing from scratch. I spent a considerable amount of time over the past two weeks reviewing and improving a work document that was the output of an LLM. Given the number of people involved and the final level of effort, I'm firmly convinced that writing it manually would have been faster and resulted in a higher quality product. Getting the wording right matters. |
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| ▲ | kelnos 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I really did like the author's framing there, but I think there is a different, simpler way to put it: Why would you think that asking someone else (that is, another human) to write something (and then reviewing it) is the same thing as writing it yourself? You may trust the other writer's opinions and knowledge, but it will not have the same tone, structure, word choice, understanding, or narrative flow as it would if you were to write it yourself. And when it's an LLM, you should not trust it's "opinions" and "knowledge", because it does not have either of those things. The appearance of those things is just that, an appearance. |
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| ▲ | card_zero 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's knowledge in books, and it's ingested all the books, so it does hold knowledge. But I guess that's not how you mean it. | | |
| ▲ | sethhochberg 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The key difference is that while an encyclopedia holds facts themselves, LLMs trained on that source material encode something more like a highly probable facsimile of those facts - the original fact was lost, LLMs are lossy, but can often be generated again with a decent level of accuracy by churning through stats about words, concepts, and relationships between them. The whole catch is that they can often be regenerated. But LLMs (on their own, in their parametric memory - which is the result of training) don't have any conception of whether what they've generated is a real reproduction of some training material or whether they've invented something false that seemed probable based on their encoded stats. When the probability produces something contrary to what was in the training material, you get hallucinations. They're very, very good predictive text models and can be very, very powerful when hooked up to other tools or outside databases. But its fundamentally lossy technology and all the books having been fed in doesn't guarantee all of the knowledge from those books can be spat back out. | | |
| ▲ | zmgsabst 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your criticism of LLMs also applies to humans and so implies humans don’t possess knowledge. | | |
| ▲ | JanNash an hour ago | parent [-] | | Humans can learn texts by heart, even lots of text (I have some expertise on that, having studied opera singing). They can reproduce these texts accurately, deterministically and repeatably. An LLM is a statistical machine. It does not know any text by heart and it is by pure chance that it sometimes reproduces existing texts verbatim. | | |
| ▲ | copperx 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Ant tips for doing so? I've never been able to do that, even as a kid. I remember the meaning but not the exact words. | |
| ▲ | kjshsh123 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Humans sometimes don't remember things 100%. LLMs can produce certain text and be run deterministically. I don't really understand this side of the debate other than as a gotcha tbh. If LLM use atrophies your brain and skills that's bad. If it has a repulsive writing style that's bad. I'm not sure what the debate about whether an AI is a statistical parrot unlike humans accomplishes. Is relying 100% on a bad human speechwriter somehow better? |
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| ▲ | jvanderbot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's funny. I always thought that writing was meant to inform, persuade, or entertain about the subject at hand. But in professional settings, a lot more of the informativeness is about the author, and a lot more of the persuasiveness is I'm worth your time and money. So, if the author is an LLM, and obviously so, what exactly are you informing your audience of (about yourself), and what are you persuading them to do (with your article). I think we now know. | |
| ▲ | mohamedkoubaa 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It doesn't hold knowledge it has the ability to seive through a lossy latent representation of knowledge. |
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| ▲ | gyulai 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A workflow I've recently discovered for myself that provides a kind of middle ground: I'll ask the LLM to write a first draft in a language that isn't the one the piece should ultimately be in. Then I'll use the LLM's first draft as a blueprint, to write a first draft myself in the intended target language. This fights my brain's temptation to just shut off, and forces every word choice to actually be mine. Then I'll hand that over to the LLM for editorial suggestions and iterate from there. |
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| ▲ | telesilla 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Excellent idea, I'll try this. And for those who don't speak a second language other than English, you could use leet. | |
| ▲ | BatFastard 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I use an antagonistic agent to review and refute its findings, works great. | |
| ▲ | dkga 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wow, love this! Could even match with a language I am actively learning so it helps that as well! |
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| ▲ | lokar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Writing is thinking. In many situations where we are called on to write, what is actually needed is thought. |
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| ▲ | OptionOfT 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Same flow as translating from your native tongue to a foreign language. Going from foreign to native is easier than native to foreign. The latter requires completely different brain paths and a lot more understanding of the language to actually get to something correct. |
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| ▲ | onraglanroad 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| While I mostly agree with you, what is the real difference between an editor saying, 'when generating prose de novo' sounds pretentious to an American audience so let's use 'when writing from scratch' instead, versus an LLM giving the same advice? Not that it's necessarily better but it's the kind of thing an editor might pick up and so why would you reject the advice if it's a machine giving it rather than a human? |
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| ▲ | layer8 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | TFA is about having AI do the writing, not about having AI suggest editorial improvements. The parent comment argues against having the AI write the text and having the human merely review it, not against having the AI review human-written text (and the human deciding which of the AI’s suggestions they might apply). See also this existing comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49768564, which I completely agree with and which is complementary to the above root comment. | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | True, but I was responding to the comment rather than the article. | | |
| ▲ | layer8 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I expanded my comment since. | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure , but that seems like you've agreeing that an AI suggestion is as good as an editor suggestion. What do you see as the difference? | | |
| ▲ | layer8 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t see any conflict with what the root comment wrote. There are probably some differences between human and AI editorial suggestions that could be discussed, but that wasn’t the topic here. | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It was the topic I was discussing with the person I replied to. If you want to discuss something else just let me know. |
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