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meerita 6 hours ago

Good news they adopted Rust as Tier-1 language. I hope their Weather app stop consuming more than 1GB RAM https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-11-s-built-in-Weather-...

Verdex 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel like the weather app makes a lot of sense from a corporate politics point of view.

A 1mb weather app would have a significantly less impressive pie chart associated with it come "here are our improvements" presentation.

Also if times get tough and you're told to reduce headcount by 10%, who do you want to get rid of. Sally who knows the USB driver end to end or Todd who wrote the bloated 1gb weather app. (Don't feel bad for Todd, he knew what he was getting himself into.)

ldobre 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Also, showing the weather is a great excuse to ask permissions for the user location.

zahlman 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What does that have to do with its RAM consumption, though?

sshine an hour ago | parent [-]

What if the user changes location?

Sounds like unbounded, dynamic allocation to me!

mf2hd an hour ago | parent [-]

Makes sense, someone turns on a vpn, have to prepare for that.

afpx 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The mac tahoe weather system daemon is also sus

swozey 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've been doing forest service stuff for a year with almost no signal and often no gps without antenna and it's incredible what asks for location permission to run. My amazon bought LEDs (15+, 3-5 diff types) all check location before I can connect them. I wind up waiting 30 seconds sometimes more to turn lights on. My generator and inverter have to phone home so that lags constantly.

Also I've been shadowbanned from a bunch of social media sites and had problems with payment systems, etc because Starlink confuses companies tracking user locations to geoips etc.

Won't even get into the apps that look downloaded and usable until you open them with no signal and they don't work before phoning home.

I've been meaning to go through ALL my apps and delete everything I don't use, I haven't installed a new app in years.

Then you have MacOS now that has the most "wtf" level permission prompts that make you think everything is phoning home or trying to access stuff on your network when it's just connecting bluetooth devices or something daily. I don't know how many games I've installed that now show up as having full screen or keyboard control permissions just to use input devices. I work on this stuff and can deduce what it's doing, especially after googling it, but "Stupidgame needs control of your system" is wild to someone who doesn't, I'm sure.

I've been wondering if it's almost nefarious that they want to get people used to allowing these seemingly system wide controls to be given to.. everything, by hiding the security-ok things behind a giant red flag warning.

Sorry went on a tangent. I miss specific permissions notifications I can trust.

edit: Oh, my "fix" for most of this is fakegps and mocking my android systemwide gps location to whatever, if you go through this.

zanecodes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Android's permission system conflates the Bluetooth scanning permission with the "Fine location" permission, because in theory any app that can enumerate nearby Bluetooth devices (including things like nearby Bluetooth Low Energy beacons commonly found in stores and malls) could use that information to locate your phone within a few hundred feet.

It seems like there's a newer build option to explicitly disable the "Fine location" permission prompt while still being able to scan for Bluetooth devices, but such beacons are somehow filtered from the list if it's enabled, and it's only available for builds targeting newer Android versions.

nicman23 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i prefer the macos mindset if not the actual OS

swozey 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I just looked and I think what I'm talking about, where they folded more specific permission callouts under a broad term "Full disk access" "local devices" etc used to be more granular before they updated that UI to match the iphone. If I got a jumpscare permission prompt on macos, I used to actually be concerned. Now they're all jumpscares for basic stuff.

But I could be misremembering. I haven't liked any of the recent macos releases. I will begrudgingly install Golden Gate to hopefully fix my m1 max 64gb slowing ot a crawl with Tahoe.

jen20 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

If you really want to see what is doing what, you should install Little Snitch and Little Flocker. Many apps (from exactly the people you'd expect) are doing absolutely unhinged nonsense that no-one should put up with.

nicman23 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

yeah i mean security is opposite to convenience until it is really really not

mf2hd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah, most of the people just click yes, yes, allow, allow, yesIamsure, next. Especially when the system is training them to do exatly this by these meaningless warnings you described.

The forest job sounds nice :)

throwaway894345 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Unrelatedly, I'm still trying to figure out why Apple requires me to unlock my phone to look at the weather. Is there some concern that someone could pick up my phone and learn what city it is in?

jshier 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can use the weather widget on the lock screen, and as long as you have lock screen content when locked enabled, you can see the current area's weather just fine. Or do you want the whole app experience?

throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The lock screen widgets don't tell you much more than what you can get from looking outside. It's not very helpful to know that it's currently overcast and raining, but it would be a lot more helpful if I could know when the rain is supposed to stop or what the week's forecast is and so on.

throwaway27448 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm a little too lazy to experiment, but it wouldn't surprise me if that widget didn't function normally until the phone is unlocked.

jen20 an hour ago | parent [-]

I just tried it. It works fine.

throwaway27448 an hour ago | parent [-]

The software can read from the phone without unlocking it?

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
freeplay 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You want to be able to launch apps without unlocking your phone? Slippery slope.

kevin_thibedeau an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Camera app does it.

derefr 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Nope; the lockscreen camera is actually an entirely different app, or not-quite-app thing. (Note what happens when you open the camera roll in the lockscreen camera.)

throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If the app doesn't have any sensitive information, then yes. We already do this with home screen widgets today, so clearly there's no real barrier.

zamalek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Apps can have vulnerabilities (intentional or not). It's a contrived example, but maybe some weather app has a custom icon feature, which means you can then browse photos by opening it on the lock screen and going to that setting.

Escapado 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did Todd just know or did his PO tell him to add telemetry tool number 24 while he was protesting and begged to be allowed to migrate to a newer rendering library but got shot down promptly because "KPI line must go up"? :)

xattt 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Todd was a script kiddie and never really knew what he was doing. He changed careers after the layoff and is now an owner of an electrical contracting business.

moooo99 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The longer I work in corporate, the wiser Todd seems

missingcolours 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The corporate dilemma between "I hired some less competent engineers and they're dragging the team down" and "I hired only highly capable engineers and now I have to give 10% of them bad reviews in stack ranking and later let them go"

torginus an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think this is a real dilemma - people hell bent on avoiding work can get by without shipping a single line of code for years.

throwaway85825 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Based on windows bloat Sally got fired because she was an old timer and cost to much so all the Sally's are gone and they're all Todd's now and windows is an unstable bloated mess.

jm4 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not to mention, they have 1 GB of headroom in their back pocket if/when they need to make Windows more efficient. Quick rewrite of that app or just scrap it and they've saved months of optimization.

throwaway27448 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's less about pie charts and more that weather apps can be very eyecandy-heavy. This sort of marketing works well for both consumers and board members.

zahlman 2 hours ago | parent [-]

1GB is space for almost half an hour of 5000kbps ("YouTube Premium") video. Just what kind of eye candy are we talking about here?

monocasa 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's also only 45 frames uncompressed at 4k. It's remarkably easy to hit that if your base assets are mostly raster rather than vector for a dynamic scene.

Obviously, they should try harder, and this is an explanation rather than an excuse, but the graphics assets are mostly why.

nikanj an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sally, obviously. Todd is much more likely to have a perfect haircut and immaculate fluency in corpotalk

xyst 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In this day and age, both Sally and Todd are expendable. Both have been silently training their replacement by feeding the data models.

Replaced by LLM and an offshore contractor. CaPiTaLiSm, right?

villish 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The list of professions made obsolete is very long. Why should programming be protected if AI in the future can make software better, safer, and cheaper?

miroljub 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

delta_p_delta_x 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Calling the Weather app an 'app' is doing all the Win32, WPF, WinForms and WinUI developers a huge disservice.

It is essentially an entire Chromium instance around msn.com/weather.

MarleTangible 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Outlook, Teams, and other all show up as msedgewebview2.exe, so you also don't know which app is consuming gigs of memory doing nothing.

pjmlp 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is the Webview2 prevalence, and note many Rust projects love their webviews as well.

airstrike 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Not the ones made with iced <3

onlyrealcuzzo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's less because of what it's implemented in - and more to do with all the tracking and libraries they want to reuse...

BigCo apps will take up lots of space and memory for BigCo reasons - obviously less if it's in Rust vs Go vs Python, but you could easily write Go apps that use far less memory than Rust apps written at BigCo due to BigCo reasons.

It's just not really that much of a priority for them to have their weather app use less than 1GB of memory. It's a far bigger priority for someone to insist that somebody else uses some bloated framework so they can get promoted.

throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I've been having _a lot of fun_ writing Go apps that don't allocate anything and that use small, preallocated buffers to stream through requests/etc. Basically TigerStyle for Go. I don't use arenas, I just size everything for the worst case (or make the sizes configurable at startup) and still end up using much less memory.

This is really only possible because I told Fable to build the underlying allocation-free HTTP, JSON, etc libraries and consequently I'm not building anything serious yet (although the libraries are well-tested using pre-existing corpuses from reputable projects e.g. curl as well as fuzz tested).

Most "outputs" are passed as out parameters for the function to fill in, and results are Rust-like enums (a Go tagged union containing only small data). I could also have returned (T, error) but I would have to take care that the thing I pushed into the error argument doesn't allocate--not sure if I made the right decision or not, but for now it feels nice. The worst part is that I don't really have a good way to communicate detailed error information, but that hasn't bitten me yet.

This has also been a lot less effort than writing Rust, although Rust would have real checks for lifetimes and im/mutable and enum exhaustiveness and so on--so far I haven't been bitten, and I suspect things like enum exhaustiveness can be addressed via linter if necessary.

afdbcreid 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> This has also been a lot less effort than writing Rust

I have never written such Go, but as an experienced Rust programmer I can tell you Rust is not hard to write after learning it. Learning it can take more time than usual (although there is also contrary evidence, e.g. from Google) but after you're used to it, you're basically as proficient as in other languages, except some glitches (that can be expensive - rewriting your main structure, but are fortunately rare). Considering the effort involved in coding in such unnatural Go variant, I tend to believe it is far easier to code in Rust (including coding in Rust using this style, since it is more suited to it).

Of course, if you're just vibe coding everything, maybe it is easier because maybe the LLMs write such Go better that they write Rust. But if you're not, even if you're only reviewing the code, I believe it's easier to review Rust code than to review such Go code (and potentially than reviewing any Go code, but that is a different matter).

sn9 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Have you considered doing this in OCaml?

You'd get most of the benefits of Go and Rust.

_s_a_m_ 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

are they launching for the graphics in the background the whole MS Office and PowerPoint?

isolay 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Whether vibecoded Rust will be better than whatever they are doing now remains to be seen.

mr_00ff00 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The question in terms of memory is, will vibe coded rust get around ownership issues by .clone()-ing everything.

Maybe this has changed since I wrote Rust, but that was a classic beginner fix. Just throw memory at it.

JoshTriplett 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://github.com/luser/keep-calm-and-call-clone

"Keep calm and call clone" is a good strategy for getting things working. Don't prematurely optimize code until you know it's the bottleneck.

ben-schaaf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There's premature optimisation, where you write a whole bunch of complicated code to avoid cloning an Arc<>. And then there's "premature optimisation" where you skip any consideration for performance until it becomes a problem.

The latter is usually what people who use the quote "premature optimisation is the root of all evil" think it means. Don't just keep calm and clone, consider what you're cloning and why, and then hopefully we won't end up with even more horribly slow software.

bananamogul an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Isn’t the latter what Knuth meant?

Such a slippery slope between “consideration of performance” and optimization.

cogman10 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

The full quote

> Programmers waste enormous amounts of time thinking about, or worrying about, the speed of noncritical parts of their programs, and these attempts at efficiency actually have a strong negative impact when debugging and maintenance are considered. We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that critical 3%.

Notice the aspects and the reasons for knuth's "premature optimization". Is it making the code harder to debug and read? Is it a non-critical path?

If an optimization doesn't impact readability or debugability (for example, picking a datastructure that fits the problem instead of just using a List for everything). Then you should do it.

I see the quote so often pulled by people that want to justify inserting a n^2 algorithm when a log(n) solution is either the same amount of code or 1 line extra.

There's also important context about the era knuth was programming in. Optimization in the era of knuth was targeting the hardware and tickling things like the CPU cache and memory in a very specific way. It was things like clever bit manipulation and packing to save memory. That's the context. In modern terms it'd be "don't use SIMD intrinsics until you know you need them". It wouldn't be "Don't think about algorithmic complexity" which is where I most often see that kludge deployed.

afdbcreid 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Keep calm and clone" is a good advice for beginners. Then it is also a good advice for experts - because when you're an expert and you just think of cloning, that probably means it is easier than borrowing which you would default to.

JoshTriplett an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

By all means use borrowing if it's straightforward. But don't necessarily upend your whole codebase to avoid one clone, either.

Barrin92 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The question to me in terms of memory is, if you're writing a weather app on windows why are you not using C#.

The point of these low/zero overhead languages like Rust is you're in an environment where memory management is ultra critical. The dotnet garbage collector does more than a good enough job for a weather app, likely a much better one than vibe coded .clone() Rust

Instead of oscillating between Rust and 1 GB webview apps just ... use the excellent managed language that exists on the operating system appropriate for GUI applications?

bluGill 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The other things I've seen beginners do is throw unsafe at everything.

tredre3 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The things that unsafe enables are arbitrary pointers, FFI, and accessing union members in a C struct. It seems highly unlikely to me that unsafe would fix any beginner's problem.

.clone() on the other hand is indeed an easy/quick fix for a lot of issues you'd face when learning rust.

suddenlybananas 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think beginner programmers are unlikely to use unsafe when learning rust but people coming from c or c++ who are beginners at rust might use unsafe all over the place.

bluGill 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Exactly - we have been using C or C++ for decades and most of us have a lot of experience. We think like programmers in the languages meaning we often do things that Rust won't allow without unsafe. A small percent of the time that is the right thing (which is why Rust have unsafe), but very often there is a Rust way that is just as performant if only we knew how to think like Rust programmers.

Pannoniae 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sadly it still feels like it's one of the languages where the language doesn't trust you, it tries to force you to do things "the right way". I do love quite a few of its design like how traits are, not forcing every method into the declaration, and the standard library is much less crazy than the C++ version.

Sadly, other things a bit less so - the story for the thin battery-less stdlib + npm-style churn encourages bloat, and the semantics are obsessed with safety at a heavy cost to productivity unless you spam clone() and reference-counting - but then your program becomes slow, kind of negating the advantages, you might as well have written it in C# or something...

rblatz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah it doesn’t trust you, and for good reason the decades of developers making the same mistakes over and over again. If everyone was perfect you wouldn’t need Rust, but no one is perfect and that’s why Rust exists.

bluGill 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most of the time the rust way is just as good, just different.

uecker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but this this is not a problem at all because any bug caused by misuse of unsafe (or unwrap) is entirely the fault of the programmer (or the AI) and not of Rust. /s

stefan_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Actually they just Arc<T> everything

dismalaf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Instead of leaking memory it'll just clone the whole heap over and over.

hirvi74 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I seriously do not think things could be any worse.

CamperBob2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If it's vibecoded, who GAF what language is used?

This argument applies regardless of how you feel about vibecoding. Lately people have been asking for x64 machine language and getting reasonable results.

geodel 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But Tier-1 app consuming Tier-1 RAM seems officially approved.

pessimizer an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they can't do it with infinity budget and infinity AI, they're not going to be able to do it with that plus Rust.

Hilarious that the article is like "Apple's weather app is only 200MB!"

The day that OS vendors started abandoning native apps was a hilarious day.

jordand 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It won't, that 1GB+ belongs to Microsoft's advertisers and their many video ads

MarleTangible 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Reminds me of how they allow OEMs to install bloatware through Windows update now. I believe LG did something that leads to various app installs when you connect their monitors via HDMI.

unixhero 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And that the calculator does not take 5 seconds to load

nalekberov 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does it matter when one embeds web browser into their app?

ls-a 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]