Remix.run Logo
bcherny 2 hours ago

(I work at Anthropic) I agree. I use an LLM to write my code, but I do all of my writing by hand, since it helps me think.

It reminds me of the transition over the last year from AI-assisted coding to AI doing all the coding. At first the code output wasn't good enough, and humans read and iterated on the code all day, so the details of the source code mattered. Now, the code is largely high quality and it meets a large set of guardrails we've set up over the years (linters, typecheckers, security checks, LLM-assisted code quality checkers), and it's just Claude working on the code, so the details matter less and engineers think a level or two up (machine code < assembly/bytecode < source code < conversation with agent < artifact with high level design).

I wonder if long form writing will go the way of code. You and the AI agree on an outline or other high level representation, then the LLM expands it into a document. But writing and coding are different enough in a number of ways that this is far from inevitable.

lelanthran an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> wonder if long form writing will go the way of code. You and the AI agree on an outline or other high level representation, then the LLM expands it into a document.

What use is that? I'm not being facetious, I'd really rather like to know.

Who or what is the audience for that sort of long form writing? If it's a human, why would they read it? They'd just give it to an LLM and get the salient points back. If the audience is another LLM, why expand it?

The only use case is an audience of humans who still read and understand, and those people aren't going to be interested in a message when it is not apparent that the sender actually understands the message themselves.

whstl 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

A lot of corporate documentation exists solely to measure if people are working or not.

That's why there's so many meetings in white collar companies. Because people can't understand what is going on at those documents so they just need to "align".

LLMs are amazing at generating this useless documentation that goes absolutely nowhere.

bcrosby95 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You claim writing is thinking, but imply writing code isn't thinking.

My opinion of LLM design review isn't that high - it seems to miss design tweaks that could vastly simplify corner cases. But if your code isn't written for human consumption maybe it doesn't matter. I'm still directly responsible for what I commit, so I can't just offload it to Claude.

sersi an hour ago | parent | next [-]

That's something I struggle with, I try to get LLMs to output code I don't care much about and focus on the parts I do and it kind of works but the problem is that reading code written by the LLM is even worth than reading LLM generating text. It's nauseating and you still have to read what the LLM did if you want to really work on the parts that matter.

CamperBob2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I still write code, I just write it in English now. It's still rock and roll to me.

bigstrat2003 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

That... isn't writing code.

jeremyjh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are just talking about the output though. If you only think at a "higher level" you aren't doing the actual thinking. Its the same with code. The output may be good enough, but over time you lose touch with the details to the extent that you can no longer serve a useful steering function for the organization. Before coding agents I'd seen this with many humans when they get promoted passed the point where they work with code directly and can't figure out how to add value there.

a2ff6eeb0 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes, of course. At some point the LLMs will also run the organization.

jeremyjh an hour ago | parent [-]

In the meantime, they aren't capable of doing it, and neither are humans who never understand the code.

a2ff6eeb0 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

So, you believe that Sam Altman understands the code?

cweld510 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Writing is already amenable to many different levels of abstraction, though. If an LLM can expand your outline into writing, then you aren’t writing at the correct level of abstraction in my opinion; you should instead be explaining how you arrived at your chosen outline. You don’t need to explain the details because any party can generate those with an LLM; same as how many PRs today can be auto-generated and no one needs to read implementations; that is no longer the correct level abstraction to work at. This should actually free us to do work at a higher level of abstraction —- more consideration of strategy, objectives, etc and less worry about implementation details.

prisonguard 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You and the AI agree, but how about you and the team who will eventually read and do code review.

Cognitive burden increases marginally with AI assisted coding.

This is why we haven't seen big projects(think browsers and browser engines) spawning in the past year.

trhaynes an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Indeed. I'm curious what the security team has to say about that approach, for example.

brabel an hour ago | parent [-]

If you get an AI to review the code especially for security, it does a very good job st finding issues. Better than any human reviewers I have worked with, and getting better. As someone who works in security , I feel much less worried about security bugs on code reviewed by a AI for security issues, be it written by AI or human.

zdragnar an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's anthropic, of course the entire team is also using AI to do the code reviews.

a2ff6eeb0 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> but how about you and the team who will eventually read and do code review.

Why are you reviewing AI code in detail? Do you also review the assembly output of GCC line by line?

electric_toucan 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Compilers like GCC are deterministic and the source code already fully defines the behavior. LLMs are non-deterministic and will accept ambiguity, filling in details where you haven’t. These sorts of comparisons aren’t really fair.

In the case of writing, it’s like hiring someone to write a book for you vs. hiring someone to translate a book you wrote into another language. In the first case, you didn’t really define the message for readers, whereas in the second case you did, and the translator is converting that same message for another audience to consume.

a2ff6eeb0 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure, but I don't know what GCC's behavior is, and I don't vet behavior differences between compiler upgrades. As long as the output works, why does it matter that the black box is deterministic?

rogerrogerr an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can’t remember the last time GCC emitted code that just flat out called the wrong function. If it did that occasionally, I would review it.

lelanthran 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Come on, this is a take we expect from a 1st grader!

Gcc makes maybe 1 mistake ever 2 billion emissions. LLMs make 1 mistake ever 3rd emission.

trhaynes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do your coworkers send emails and create written work product using LLMs? I'm curious what the standards and culture are within an AI org.

rogerrogerr an hour ago | parent [-]

[non-AI org] I despise this and call it out every time I see it. Some dude hooked up an LLM autoresponder to his email, sent some nauseating AI slop to a huge distribution list.

I couldn’t help myself, replied and asked him for a recipe for delicious apple cobbler and hiking trail recommendations in Glasgow, which “he” immediately provided. Highlight of my career.

I think my core argument is this: I have access to every bit of information your AI does, so if I want an AI answer I’ll get one myself. If that isn’t true, why are you hoarding information? Push it somewhere we can all see it. So the only reason I would send you a message is to access _your_ brain. I have no interest in talking to an AI through a worse interface.

arctic-true an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect some amount of long form writing will go the way of code - long form writing for the purpose of consumption by other AIs. Writing as a means of exchanging qualitative information, with no regard for how the reader will feel about it (beyond understanding what the words mean). Not everything can be distilled into data, but this doesn’t mean it is beyond the reach of LLMs.

On the other hand, long form writing for human consumption seems like it may evade LLMs for much, much longer.

brabel an hour ago | parent [-]

What makes you think it will take a long time? AI seems capable of imitating any writing style if prompted to do so already, and I think it will get better on this quickly since the AI writing style is a main focus of AI labs right now. I can see no reason at all to believe this is a matter of years still, more like a few months.

arctic-true 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

You can have a great “writing style” and still put together really crappy long-form work. The problem is that AI writing, particularly creative writing, is too repetitive, too predictable, too trope-laden.

All of the things you say are very true in the near term for short form writing - a page or two of Claudeslop will probably be much easier to swallow in a year or two than it is now. But I don’t see a path to fully AI-generated novels or long-form investigative journalism becoming mainstream in the next couple of years.

swatcoder 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it's just Claude working on the code, so the details matter less

If you're not billed for usage, anyway.

Otherwise, for the other 99% of folks, that attitude is of course a pit trap that captures code bases and makes them maintainable only through the providers -- presumably one or few -- with a rich enough model to keep up with the growing mess. Preserving a code base that's legible, organized, and fundamentally maintainable by both humans and trailing commodity models is of imminent concern for anybody who doesn't want their margin strangled by your employer once it's too late to have other options.

As frontier capabilities advance, the details don't matter less; they matter more.

user43928 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It does not concern me.

Prices are very competitive and today's SOTA is next to free in half a year.

Whether code is maintainable without AI becomes less and less important.

bigstrat2003 3 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> Now, the code is largely high quality...

No. No it is not. Nobody who actually cares about the quality of their work is letting an LLM just turn out code without reviewing it carefully.