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xvilka 6 hours ago

The original idea for the ID verification was broken by design anyway. The only safe and secure way is a chain/tree of trust, e.g. with PKI, where you could generate some certificate just for that particular service, while keeping your root key safe. Then, in the case of leak, the most you lose, is one particular key for one particular service that could be immediately revoked. You could even slap zero-knowledge proofs for particular properties (e.g. if the person has a driver license or not) without de-anonymizing the account. In the rare even of root key leak you should be able to physically go to the authority and make a new one, while revoking the old key. I don't see any other better alternatives than this.

doikor 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is effectively the EU age verification system.

Your government (which already has all your details) generates certificates and you just give those out. The other side can the use simple public/private key verification to ensure the cert is valid. Also government does not get information who you gave the cert to and if you create a bunch and single use them the other side can’t follow you between uses using the certs.

nwlieb an hour ago | parent [-]

The EU age verification system requires tying yourself to Google/Apple [0] (ie will not work with GrapheneOS) which is a non-starter. This means you will need a mandatory Google/Apple account. What if your Google account gets banned?

[0] https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technic...

grebc 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t really trust anyone to get PKI right. There’s enough mistakes in the www realm that pretty well prove bad actors will get through.

The alternative is do it offline.

lima 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

eID PKIs have very little in common with the web PKI. There's a national root of trust with strong attestation. It's a very simple trust relationship. You already trust the respective government to issue IDs.

Plenty of European countries have an eID CAs and it works fine. The PKI part is a solved problem.

Doesn't even need ZKP, the CA can just issue an attestation.

grebc 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You’re conflating the real life need of ID, with trust in the organisation.

Sorry. Wrong.

maratc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I've experienced this "solved problem" when visiting Germany during COVID. On every entrance to a mall there was somebody with a scanner device, and they only let you in if the scanner showed a green mark. I've been fully vaccinated (not EU) but my code didn't show a green mark on their scanner and I was promptly denied entry. The solution was to show them my German friend's code on my phone, this registered just fine, so I could enter anywhere.

So the whole "eID/CAs/ZKP/PKI" mumbo jumbo can be easily fooled by a gif file.

benregenspan an hour ago | parent | next [-]

That part seems to qualify as an unsolved problem. But could anyone have taken the scanned data (or the GIF file) and used it to open a bank account in your friend's name? That seems like the main issue that is genuinely solved by correct implementation of this type of system.

maratc an hour ago | parent [-]

Already today nobody can open a bank account in my name with just a picture of my passport, as the original would be required. My passport doesn't have any of the "eID/CAs/ZKP/PKI", so the question of "what exactly the addition of it solves" remains open.

My national ID card supposedly has some of it, the 17-year olds who want to pass as 18-year olds usually show a doctored gif file of their ID card, with a year of birth one or two years before the actual one; this works in ~98% of the cases.

pas an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

yes, just as age verification can be fooled by an older friend who gets the check mark.

maratc an hour ago | parent [-]

Reminds me of

   If you think cryptography can solve your problem, you don’t understand your problem and you don’t understand cryptography.
(Bruce Schneier dug into origins of this here: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2026/05/laurie-anders...)
HlessClaudesman 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

or just not ask for it at all.

The three times I've needed to provide a scan of my passport were: to enroll in a university course, to buy from an e-commerce site, and to become an app developer. None of those orgs really needed a scan of my passport, which can't be revoked like a cracked password, and will now sit unencrypted somewhere until the end of time or until they are hacked and subsequently shamed into handling their customers data more like radioactive waste.

BobbyTables2 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

In my experience, hotels in other countries also take a copy of the passports of all guests.

Also learned “know your customer” laws require US people to give passport + SSN to a foreign bank who then reports it back to the US. Given that such bank’s website involves disabling right-click for “security”, the only glimmer of hope is that the data is catastrophically lost due to stupidity before it can be compromised.

dolmen an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The only times I had to provide a scan of my passport was to cross a border:

    - get a VISA to be allowed to cross the border
    - send to the airline for my flight that will cross the border
    - show the real passport at the border
I have another ID for authentication inside my country, which by the way, is not a driving license (which is used only for car driving usage).
martyfunkhouser 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The US Government is one of the reference implementations of PKI.

Unfortunately, IDs are issued 50 different ways by the less competent states.

Combine that with accusations that getting new IDs constitutes systematic racism (a widely held belief on HN), ignoring that the ruralest of India has been able to do this successfully, and you're not getting digital ID any time soon.

abirch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The difficulty for the US is people seem to be against a Federal Government ID. India doesn't seem to have this stigma and hence rural India can solve this problem.

micromacrofoot an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think people are against it, we already have the social security identifiers as a government layer... it's just that no one in the government is willing to do it for free in a way that is accessible to everyone

dragonwriter 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> I don't think people are against it

Every time national ID grts moderately serious discussion it is revealed very clearly that yes, the people are against it.

RealID—which was simply national standaedization of state issued ID (when used for a variety of important purposes) had intense resistance, too—and its the closest policy to national ID that has passed.

Social Security identifiers are not ID for the person, and anyway were adopted nearly a century ago at a moment of higher-than-current trust in the federal government.

abirch an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I think this is the horse shoe theory where the far left and right are against it. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-conservative-and-li...

I know people who don't have a social security number because their parents didn't want them to be tracked by the system.

mistrial9 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

every application packet for a US National Security clearance for twenty years, was stolen in bulk, by Chinese agents. Your characterization of the perfection of US Federal data management appears to be lacking nuance.

Larrikin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IDs being required for voting is essentially a poll tax the way that it's argued for in the US. There's a minimum amount you have to spend to even get one that will expire in a certain amount of years.

That's also assuming you can get all the documents you need for the initial ID. If you don't already have all the essential documents you'll need multiple appointments at government facilities. The local social security office usually has just one location. Mine required time off from work because they were open from 10 till 4 four days a week. This was just part of the process to get an ID for a child when we only had a copy of a couple documents instead of the originals.

Getting an ID for my grandma who made the mistake of being born black in the rural South during Jim Crow was a year long process, since she didn't even have originals of most of the documents. It took that long and was handled by one of her children that was a lawyer. For her we were getting an ID so the family could take her traveling, years before it was turned into a political issue to disenfranchise people.

Nobody arguing for the ID laws ever argues for raising their taxes for an ID that all citizens are guaranteed with the supporting infrastructure. They're arguing for it because they know people they don't want to vote will have trouble getting one

SV_BubbleTime 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

So… requiring an ID to buy a gun is also an unconstitutional tax on a right?

esseph 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

Hey, you know what...

pstuart an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It is a problem for millions of Americans: https://voteriders.org/article/who-doesnt-have-an-id-in-amer...

Systemic racism is very much a thing, and while perhaps not foundational in this particular issue, we see still see political fuckery that definitely targets by race: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2026-election/tarrant-count...

austin-cheney 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

While that can certainly be true it is still generally safer than username/password for authentication.

chr15m 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the most you lose

Yep that's the only thing you lose, apart from a huge number of literal images of kids in the hands of literal criminals.

> I don't see any other better alternatives

Not doing age verification!

micromacrofoot an hour ago | parent [-]

age verification is the current mandate of multiple governments, not doing it for many services means shutting down

chr15m an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't mean the services I mean the governments.

smalltorch 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That sounds like this prediction from 2003

https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/#SI_an...

giancarlostoro 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Passkey?

gonzalohm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think with passkey you don't own the private key. It's in your device and managed by the OS. That's one of the reasons I don't use passkeys (the other being that if I lose the device I can't access my account)

jeroenhd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, you can. Either you can physically own the key on the physical device (i.e. Yubikey/Google Titan/HSM) or you can use software (KeepassXC, Bitwarden).

Most operating systems and browsers come with a sync mechanism that many people default to, but it's no more than that: the default.

As for account recovery, most websites have a way to recover your account when you lose your password, there's no reason why that wouldn't work for passkeys. Every website with passkey access I've used so far makes passkeys optional and forces you to set a password already. If they switch their default to passkeys and add a password as an optional step, nothing would change.

ExoticPearTree 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> think with passkey you don't own the private key. It's in your device and managed by the OS. That's one of the reasons I don't use passkeys (the other being that if I lose the device I can't access my account)

It is not true. You can move passkeys between OSs if you have a password manager or an OS that has this ability. For example, I store my Passkeys in iCloud Keychain and I have them synced on all my Apple devices.

There are cases though, where the website can force the requirement of a device bound passkey, but that is something it is not very likely you will encounter.

giancarlostoro 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My passkey is synched with iCloud which has all hardened settings set to on, so if I switch devices (I have) its seamlessly. You can also export Passkeys is my understanding but I have not tried it.

When I'm on non-Apple I can scan a QR code on my phone and it will validate it the same way, using bluetooth to send enough info to the target computer to get me logged on.

krrrh an hour ago | parent [-]

Bluetooth is actually only used to establish proximity. Both your phone and the browser connect to an internet relay, which lets the phone essentially pretend to be a USB security key connected to the computer.

duskdozer 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can, with for example KeePassXC. But following passkey development it does seem that in time they will want Google or Apple to own your private key and for you to use it through them.

jerf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My passkeys are in my self-hosted Vaultwarden. If I can't put them there, I don't use them.

It's not all sunshine and roses, though. Despite having Bitwarden set as the only passkey provider in my Android setup, the phone persistently only offers me Google. Which is empty, because as I said, I won't use one tied to things I can't control. Works great on desktops, though.

Passkeys can theoretically require you to be on hardware, I haven't found anything yet that requires that.

esseph 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

This sounds like a Bitwarden specific issue, because I don't have that problem with Proton.

vincnetas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you can do passkeys wile having private key. When os has the private key its just more convenient way of doing passkey.

gonzalohm 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think you can but it has to be supported by the website that you are using

cassianoleal 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don´t think I've ever come across a service that only used passkeys. Username/email + password + 2FA is usually the primary form of verification. There's usually a way to recover your account through email.

ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I use passkeys only, for the backend admin app for my app.

They work fairly well. I use a login ID/PW to set up the passkey, then the passkey, for everything else.

Passkeys work well, but I feel as if they are still a bit too “fiddly” for your average mensch.

I’m pretty sure the private key is transferable, but Apple keeps them in the Keychain, so they seem locked into the OS. On my machine, I can also keep passkeys in 1Password.

A while back, I wrote up a series on implementing passkeys in iOS/MacOS: https://littlegreenviper.com/series/passkeys/

gonzalohm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I thought the objective was to get rid of passwords