| ▲ | rootedbox 6 hours ago |
| I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software.
2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a disability flies into a wall. |
|
| ▲ | gramie 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone, not just people with disabilities. |
| |
| ▲ | keerthiko 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | yep, the curb cut effect is a well-researched and documented phenomenon [0] across ADA development in all aspects of the world. accessibility work isn't just about making things possible for folks with disabilities, it's about making things better for everyone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_cut_effect | | |
| ▲ | TomatoCo 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Another way to think of this is that everybody occasionally needs to do something unusual. But some people, due to their life circumstances, always need to do something unusual. And making things better for the always-odd folk is also a positive to the occasionally-odd folk. Which like, we're all eventually gonna be odd folk! That's what age does to us. But we should understand these accommodations as being a net positive, not a cost, to society. |
| |
| ▲ | jaggederest 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Some of the things we take for granted in UI/UX originated that way, like automatic hamburger menu hide/show (for very large zoom) and "scroll to content/top" buttons for screenreaders, which, if you've ever tried to read a recipe online are pretty critical. Captions on videos are also like that, although there you might share blame to them for enabling the poor sound mastering on things like, legendarily, Tenet, perhaps. | | |
| ▲ | Velocifyer 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What are the advantage of “scroll to content/top” buttons over <main> for screen readers? I think that the use of those buttons is for when the CSS fails to load. | | |
| ▲ | jaggederest an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's essentially the same thing, but a lot of the time people will add a sr-only button at the very top that just goes straight there, and one at the bottom if the screen reader gets stuck in the footer nav, as well. Depending on which screenreader people use they sometimes only work on the actual hydrated markup, so <main> isn't always visible the way you'd expect. It's been a while since I did a11y tho so I'm probably hopelessly out of date. |
|
| |
| ▲ | madeofpalk 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's because at the end of the day: - accessibility is just usability. all it is is making sure your product is as usable by as many people as possible. - it's a myth that "people with disabilities" are some other that excludes you, and 'accessibility' or assistive technologies only benefits other people. Everyone is only temporarily 'abled'. You need to use prescription glasses to comfortable read a computer screen? You're a parent trying to watch some TV while getting your child to sleep? All benefit from assistive technologies. | |
| ▲ | phatskat 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I 100% agree. I've been working on a component library rebuild at work and accessibility is a key focus, granted I don't think that would be the case if some of our contracts didn't mandate it but it's fiiiiiine I'm someone who enjoys this kind of work, especially when the target is a stylized drop down - I got to spend a week with the MDN page for the ARIA combobox open, trudging through all of the ins and outs of keyboard accessibility and I know I'm still missing a couple things (typing when the control is focused but not open, for example), and having clearly defined specs is something we don't seem to get a lot in webdev | |
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | PunchyHamster 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | that's generally the case with many accessibility features, not just for websites |
|
|
| ▲ | jameshart 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In the context of discussing TUI vs GUI (as the article does), the accessibility and keyboard control balance probably swings very strongly to native GUIs; in a TUI you’re at the whim of the TUI framework’s stabs at accessibility support, while on a full fledged native UI you have all the bells and whistles of focus management and text to speech and voice control and high contrast and magnification and motion adjustments… The idea that it must be more accessible because it’s confined to a mono space typeface and communicates state mostly by changing the foreground and background color of the text it renders makes no sense to me. |
|
| ▲ | cpeterso 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I worked on Microsoft’s Windows QA team long ago. My team used to have “No-mouse Tuesdays”: you were supposed to do all your normal work but only using the keyboard. |
| |
| ▲ | kulahan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What I wouldn't give to work for a company that actually cares about QA. | |
| ▲ | high_priest 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I guess that team was dismantled some time ago, with no on carrying the flag anymore. Modern windows is impossible to work on using just keyboard. Some mods & extensions do help. But the native experience is abysmal. | |
| ▲ | BobbyTables2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I assume MouseKeys was cheating ? | | | |
| ▲ | huflungdung 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
|
|
| ▲ | stillpointlab 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I believe AI can be huge here. Things like ADA are often mechanical (adding the correct attributes to the most important page elements). It is the perfect work to audit and fix using agents. It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. I also wonder if WebMCP will be the ultimate final incarnation of this. |
| |
| ▲ | MrVandemar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It is a business opportunity as well. I worked at a company that paid for an audit before LLMs. There is tremendous cost savings possible here. Do you know one of the most underemployed groups are disabled people? And do you know where a number of disabled people get employment? Disability audits (unsurprisingly they're extremely good at this). Congratulations on recommending further marginalising an extremely marginalised group. | | |
| ▲ | stillpointlab 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I suppose it is a question of balance between: the entire web being better for all those that require accessibility vs. a subsection of that community holding their jobs. And it raises the possibility that the increased accessibility could lead to more job opportunities. But I'm not really a consequentialist and think of things in virtue ethics terms. And using technology to scale benefits to a wider group of people doesn't conflict for me. YMMV. | |
| ▲ | nonethewiser 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wait what? We should withhold accessibility features to not marginalize disabled people? |
| |
| ▲ | z3c0 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Using AI to close gaps in accessibility is like adding treads to your vehicle because society is too lazy to pave roads. | | |
| ▲ | stillpointlab 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think people outside of enterprise have no idea the cost to audit and fix a massive website. The law is a forcing function here. Lawsuits can and do happen when sites of a certain size fail to implement government-mandated laws. This is a good thing, IMO, but it only comes into force in the largest cases. If there is a credible path to 1/10th the cost (while still providing liability insurance which is a critical piece) then that will likely encourage more enterprise to do it proactively, and will open the door for startups and mid-sized companies. I have no idea why anyone would choose to see this as bad. | | |
| ▲ | z3c0 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not outside of enterprise and have worked hands-on for over a decade with AI-driven customer workflows. The cost of accessibility audits are NOT higher than AI R&D or third-party B2B contracts for vaporware touting to do the same. Sorry if that assertion stands opposed to your value prop. | | |
| ▲ | stillpointlab 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The state of affairs in the last 6 months bears almost no resemblance to the state of affairs in the last decade. No need to apologize, neither of us can predict the future. I am optimistic Fable-level models can succeed where the old not-actually-AI models failed. No shame in being pessimistic about the same. |
|
| |
| ▲ | MrJohz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think they were suggesting using AI to audit for accessibility, which is probably a better approach, and probably more effective than a lot of the basic accessibility checkers out there that work on a list of fairly simple rules and don't understand the context of what they're doing, so tend to give either very limited advice, or sometimes even offer bad advice. | | |
| ▲ | z3c0 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Research and fallbacks would certainly be better. An 85% design, 15% algorithmic solution is probably the sweet "pobody's nerfect" spot, but a company using AI to solve accessibility is like selling rape whistles -- in a perfect world, your market is nonexistent. |
| |
| ▲ | nonethewiser 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well isn’t it like asking the AI to pave roads? |
|
|
|
| ▲ | algoth1 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My father is blind, the only tech he knows how to use is a smart tv, when i build him custom apps the first thing i do is turn off talkback when the app opens, so i can control what tts says. The regular talkback is so so annoying and repetitive |
|
| ▲ | abejora 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is something that we have been working on in our app, but to be honest: it is hard. At first we wanted to be completely keyboard centric, but we had to pivot away from it. There is so much to learn in this space. There are small things, like dropping a 'jump to main content anchor' before the navigation so you don't have to tab through the top navigation everytime. But there are also certain pages en layouts which require a lot of thought on a good keyboard navigation flow. Combine that with the need for responsive layouts, our inexperience with accessibility tools, etc; and the required effort quickly adds up. |
| |
| ▲ | nonethewiser 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And this is where the conversation gets ugly. Yes accessibility is important. And if you can add it with little additional effort, great. But its not the most important thing when you’re trying to get something off the ground with limited resources. |
|
|
| ▲ | thefunnyman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah unfortunately this seems to be something very few outside of bug tech dedicate resources to. Even for them it seems to be an afterthought, at least in my professional experience. It winds up another compliance checkbox just like security. |
|
| ▲ | terrut 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm able. I have no idea or wish to go cosplay as my mental model of someone having to use tools to access my website. I use accessibility tests that make sure content has readable colors. I set a content anchor so people can navigate without sight. I would really like to learn about any frameworks that can help me make my websites accesible to everyone. If there a gold standard? |
|
| ▲ | goosejuice 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Definitely not a substitute, and a bit slow, but GPT computer use is demonstrating an alternative path with live vision models. I'd be curious how this is fairing for those with vision impairments. |
|
| ▲ | ckardaris 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's a good point. Accessibility is the next step that should also not be ignored. Navigating to the elements is one thing, but for the voice assistant to work properly it can be a little trickier. |
|
| ▲ | bonestamp2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > the second a tab is off Can you explain what you mean by this phrase? |
| |
| ▲ | Muskwalker 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | A conventional way to navigate GUIs is by using the Tab key to jump from control to control. A common way this can fail is if the Tab key traverses through the UI elements in an unexpected order. |
|
|
| ▲ | gblargg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That was my first thought, that a TUI is still a GUI. Close your eyes and explain how you can use a TUI from the keyboard. The only difference is what the display can render. |
| |
| ▲ | tptacek an hour ago | parent [-] | | Modern GUI frameworks maintain a visual UI tree for on-screen interaction, and a semantic tree for accessibility features. You can find TUI libraries that do things like this, but for most TUIs, if you close your eyes and have the UI read to you, you're going to hear "dash dash dash dash dash dash bracket dash", because the fundamental concept of a TUI is in-band UI signalling. For accessibility (the topic of this subthread), TUIs are not like GUIs. | | |
| ▲ | gblargg an hour ago | parent [-] | | I see, modern "GUI" programs aren't just GUI, whereas a TUI is just a GUI. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't think that's the right way to frame it. To me, in-band vs. out-of-band signaling is the real dividing line, and has been all the way back to PARC. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | Sarkie 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I used to do loads of accessibility testing with my sites. I was fired because I did too much once |
|
| ▲ | CamperBob2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What do you mean by "a tab is off?" |
| |
| ▲ | mikepurvis 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Using tab to cycle between interactive elements in a window or page. As soon as you tab and it goes somewhere unexpected, you're cooked. | |
| ▲ | IshKebab 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Normally you press tab to move between widgets. I guess he means if the tab order hasn't been set up properly. | | |
| ▲ | theeyescanner 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's been a while since I've done actual development, but determining tabindex ordering was a very big deal in the early 2000s when clerks/admins were moving from legacy systems to the web. They did most of their jobs with a keyboard, and if you set up tabindexing so that they can use a keyboard for 90% of their job then they would fly through tasks. If you didn't then you'd have some very angry clients at the end of the project ;) So just echoing that this is not just an accessibility thing, but just a good user interface design thing. If your UX designer isn't taking keyboards into account (jettison mobile first development into the sun please) then they have no business building business applications. | | |
| ▲ | nottorp 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I worked on an accounting application once. We had the proper tab order written down on paper docs and checked/updated it regularly. We would have been murdered by at least the point of sale people otherwise :) | | |
| ▲ | Sarkie 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I worked in hotel industry, same deal. Power users would complain within hours |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | robomartin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Democracy is about access No, not really. I know what you are trying to say, and I fully agree. We need to stop using "democracy" or "democratizing". Democracy, in it's purest form, is about mob rule --majority rule, if you want to say it in a softer/kinder way. "Democratizing" means giving a mob control of the thing, it does not mean making it accessible to all at all. |
| |
| ▲ | iLemming 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Democracy is not about mob rule, it's about a dialog. Sure, sometimes it becomes heated argumentation and noise, but it's not so much about "ruling". Lincoln in his union address in 1860 said: "I so adopt it because it furnishes a precise and an agreed starting point for a discussion between Republicans and that wing of the Democracy headed by Senator Douglas." "Democratization" in a sense is about making things accessible for discussions. "Dictatorship" is the opposing term - things get "dictated" by a single entity - person, political force or a corporation. | | |
| ▲ | robomartin 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Democracy is not about mob rule, it's about a dialog. No my friend, Democracy is majority rule, which easily turns into a ruling mob. It has nothing whatsoever to do with dialog. Also, your quote of Lincoln's address is taken completely out of context. He was talking about his opposition of the ideas of a faction of Democrats who were in favor of slavery and his support of the majority of Republicans who believed slavery was a moral, social, and political evil. In other words, take the time to at least do some research before you try to use quotes in support of a failed conclusion. Did you read the Greeks in school? Probably not. I recommend Plato's Republic. Both he and Socrates talked about the flaws of direct/pure democracy that would usually make it degenerate into mob rule. In Republic Plato developed a hierarchy: Aristocracy: Rule by the wise (my comment: a fantasy)
Timocracy: Rule by the honorable (my comment: another fantasy)
Oligarchy: Rule by the rich (my comment: a reality in many societies)
Democracy: Rule by the masses (my comment: glad we don't have this)
Tyranny: Rule by a despot (my comment: plenty of examples of this in history)
It took until the late 1700's for the idea of a representative democracy to actually take hold, with Alexander Hamilton being credited with the terminology.So, "democratizing" means letting the masses have their way. It does not mean making things accessible to everyone, which is the hilariously or tragically ignorant way in which Silicon Valley tries to use the term. You see startups all the time say "we are democratizing <X>". Just how stupid are these people? They are saying we are going to let the mob have access and benefit from <X> not making it available to everyone. In the context of Plato’s political philosophy the modern, casual use of the word "democratizing" completely ignores the historical and philosophical baggage of the root word democracy. The irony is that modern society uses "democratize" as an undisputed positive term (meaning liberation and fairness), while the very philosophers who birthed western political thought used "democracy" as a warning label for instability and lawlessness. A better term for what startups want to say would be "commoditizing": turning a specialized, elite resource into a public good or a widely available commodity; not "democratizing", which is an ignorant use of a term that means almost exactly the opposite. I guess classical education has not been a part of schooling for quite some time. As a kid I did not necessarily enjoy reading the Great Books. As an adult, I can see how much damage has been caused by the abandonment of such valuable teachings. | | |
| ▲ | rustystump 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Classics are still there, at least they were for me. Then again, i didnt have the pleasure of experiencing American public education. As much as i do agree, overtime language does eventually change but it can happen over our dead bodies | | |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | netbioserror 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why not have WMs and DEs specialized for specific disability categories? |
| |
| ▲ | shakna 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Both your window manager, and desktop env, already have a gigantic tree of accessibility systems built into it. ... And then your app turns into a canvas made in Electron. |
|
|
| ▲ | rustystump 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Having done exactly this for adding accessibility into a crypto wallet in the past, (yes crypto wanted even the disabled), it is plainly obvious why this is not standard. It is an absolute train-wreck trying to get everything to work and for the overwhelming majority of products it isnt work the effort. It isnt like you put a wheelchair ramp up and are done. It is a constant battle with every change. It is just another one of those things where the minuet minority suffers. Now if a company got some tax write off for it, that would change things. |
|
| ▲ | cute_boi 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The issue with accessibility is bots from scrapefly or browserbase will abuse website to death. There is reason why we can't have good things due to abuser like scrapefly, browser base, anchor browser etc... I had to turn off all the accessible selector and randomized html soup to make their life harder. |
| |
| ▲ | novok 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The solution is redirecting to an actual API or MCP with the same ability as your GUI, along with a real way to export your data. This is the future with how AI agents will work whether you like it or not. People are not going to want to deal with a GUI if an agent can do it better and faster for them. |
|