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SubiculumCode 3 hours ago

autism researcher here. I have not yet read this study. It will not be the kind of paper that many, including myself, can read quickly and understand. Autism is a multi-disciplined science, so there is a lot to understand. However, my initial sense from reading the abstract is that this paper might be a really really big deal and incredible new resource.

General problem statement: Many different genetic variants are associated with autism, some strongly, most very weakly. Many have suspected that this plethora of genetic variants might converge onto a smaller set of biological pathways affecting neurodevelopment in ways that results in an autism phenotype or phenotypes. This has been our hope, because the alternative scares the hell out of a scientist. The saying goes that if you met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism...meaning there is a ton of heterogeneity within the autism spectrum, even if a certain set of core autism symptoms are displayed. So there was a existential crisis that there is no "autism", just a billion autisms, where your sample size is always N=1. By demonstrating evidence that many variants converge on the same biological pathways, there is hope that understanding autism is tractable.

RobotToaster 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't there likely a large epigenetic component?

roughly 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Out of curiosity, what leads us to treat ASD as an actual single disorder, as opposed to a billion different individual neurological profiles?

I'd expect one of the things that makes this difficult, too, is that there's a missing component of the "machine" - the genetics affect the pathways, which affect (maybe?) things like signal propagation or network regulation in the brain, but the actual effect of that is on the patient's experience of consciousness, and it's difficult for someone to get more than N=1 of those via commonly accepted legal methods - otherwise, we're all just looking at the outside of the box and saying "huh, this box acts differently than that box, weird."

SubiculumCode 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A lot of the behaviors by which autism is diagnosed (social communication, repetitive behaviors and restricted interests) are fairly high-level behaviors, dependent on a lot of cognitive/neural machinery beneath it. There is an idea out there that convergent behaviors that allow consistent diagnosis depends on this, as the resulting behaviors might results from differences in many different underlying processes, but the result at the higher level can be measured the same.

Analogy: Two programs can produce nearly identical behavior at the UI level, but be implemented very differently. Diagnosis operates partly at the "interface" level, but what happens underneath can differ greatly.

roughly an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Ok, that makes sense - so ASD is basically that we’ve noticed some prototypical behaviors, which is where the grouping comes from, but it’s possible what we’re seeing is sort of the “carcinization” of mental operating modes - many different pathways into the same output point, which is why the genetic search has been so difficult - that right enough for a non-scientist?

What I know of the brain is that it’s basically a chaos machine - a ton of activity that’s just on the edge of a cascade, a bunch of feedback loops, a bunch of emergent behavior, and it’s kind of impressive we function at all to begin with, so it’s not surprising there’s so many ways to perturb the output behavior.

sublinear 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is high-level behavior the only criteria for diagnosis?

I think the majority of the public would like to better understand how we came into this position. There's nothing wrong with the topic of autism as research, but it's been a political football for so long that there are many reasonable doubts about methodology, diagnosis, and relevance to everyday healthcare. I understand there may be complications with some patients that require medical diagnosis and intervention, but does that not imply there should be a much more meaningful label on those cases than just the broad umbrella term of "autism"?

On one extreme, we have people thinking they're autistic when they're actually just awkward and inexperienced in life. On the other, we have people with epilepsy who prefer the label "autism" even though they're merely correlated. Something is wrong here. Not with the science, but the discussion.

coldtea an hour ago | parent | next [-]

>On one extreme, we have people thinking they're autistic when they're actually just awkward and inexperienced in life

And you know that they're "just" the latter, and not autistic, because? They don't look like the Rain man?

vector_spaces 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> the majority of the public

This requires some citation or justification.

Diagnosis is not a criminal conviction in a North American court of law. In particular, reasonable doubt -- particularly among casual, non-clinical, self-deputized jurists who don't generally have any insight into the patient's chart, let alone medical qualification whatsoever -- is not a sufficient justification to withhold diagnosis.

In your post, you are leaning a bit too heavily on vibes to do the heavy lifting in making your points. For example, you claim there exist people with epilepsy who prefer to be labeled as autistic, but you don't say how many people are doing this, why they are doing this in a way that doesn't strawman, nor why this is even topical.

My interpretation is that you are hoping the reader will have specific visceral (vibes based) reactions to these facts and the drama of the spectacle you've described -- e.g. "yikes, some morons are conflating correlation with causation/identification and using that faulty reasoning to claim a diagnosis they don't deserve". Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting what you are trying to communicate, it is not my intention

My suspicion is that this is a tiny number of people to begin with, and not an indictment of autism diagnosis in the way you believe it is. In fact, most of the people you seem to take issue with are self-diagnosing. What specific "methodology, diagnosis, and relevance to every day healthcare" are you taking issue with then?

imzadi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel like your initial question can be applied to a lot of things. For instance, Elher Danlos Syndrome has 13 variations depending on which gene is mutated. This include 11 known mutations and 2 catch-all categories for variations where we haven't yet found the mutation. Why are all these mutations under the same disease when they have such a range of symptoms? My guess is that it is because they were all lumped together before we had the language to talk about them as separate things or the technology to identify the causes. Going back and saying oh all these people don't have ASD or EDS or whatever but this specific thing that we have now identified might cause some disruption is research and awareness.

roughly an hour ago | parent [-]

From what I know of cell biology (read: committed dilettante), the notion that one gene does X is rarely correct. The way to think about genes and the proteins they encode for is less “blue eyes” and more “metric socket wrench #5” - the protein is a tool, and lacking that tool means any operation that requires that tool isn’t going to function as normal, which is why you see such weird disparate effects from mutations and also multiple genetic pathways to the same pathology.

Also nature is absurdly cavalier about using whatever it’s got at hand, so it’s not so much “metric socket wrench #5” as “the pry-bar/hammer/thing we use to hold the hood open” that gets fucky when the genes go wrong.

hangsi 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

To aid curious readers, the cell biology term for this (many genes to do X) is pleiotropy. The Wikipedia article [0] conveniently includes a discussion on its relevance in autism.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiotropy

Alex3917 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> what leads us to treat ASD as an actual single disorder, as opposed to a billion different individual neurological profiles?

We already do treat it as the latter. The medical definition of autism is basically just any neurodevelopmental disorder that isn’t ADHD.

kulahan an hour ago | parent | next [-]

"Why don't we treat it as many disorders instead of just calling everything autism?"

"we do, autism is everything that isn't ADHD"

...what? I must be stroking out, but I have no idea what point you're making here...?

Alex3917 an hour ago | parent [-]

My point is that autism is already treated by the medical system as many disorders and not as a single thing. The reason they all share a common label is for political reasons, where it makes sense to group them together. But the actual medical system does not treat them as having anything in common, let alone as being homogeneous.

coldtea an hour ago | parent [-]

>But the actual medical system does not treat them as having anything in common, let alone as being homogeneous.

That's not really true. Not to mention the very TFA, and the research that led to papers like it, is based on the opposite.

Alex3917 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

I mean you can literally upload your genetic methylation variants and bloodwork into Gemini and have it one shot a custom treatment plan for you, how much more personalized do you want? Obviously if you want hand holding from the medical system you can pay a psychiatrist or a functional doctor to do the same thing, but at this point the idea that treatment isn't personalized enough is frankly absurd.

reubn 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What a ridiculous take.

XCSme 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a potential autist, I think everyone is autistic in one way or another (which would make everyone neuroytpical, lol).

In the end, maybe we are just all unique individuals with our character sliders set in various forms.

flatline 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This line of thinking diminishes the real struggles autistic people face. Not everyone is autistic, and it's not just a quirky set of traits. I do believe society could be better arranged for people who for whatever reason don't conform to the overculture norms, so we could talk about disability along the axis of how society privileges or disadvantages certain individuals.

The concern is that autism as a rigorous category may be useless, but that doesn't mean that autistic people are suddenly neurotypical -- a term that is more politically than scientifically oriented. People who are not autistic broadly are allistic, to be precise with language. They may be neurodivergent in other ways.

XCSme 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But different autistic people struggle with different things, in different ways.

What's even the point of having a general diagnosis umbrella, if the symptoms are different?

autoexec an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> But different autistic people struggle with different things, in different ways.

Different asthmatic people struggle with different things, in different ways too, but it's useful to have a general diagnosis umbrella to cover those who have asthma even though symptoms and effective treatments may vary.

Work is ongoing to get better defined categories for autistic people, but for now at least we've got a category for people that match a broad set of traits/symptoms/challenges to work from.

flatline an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

General doesn’t mean it applies to literally everyone. If autism turns out to be a specific condition that is e.g. the result of abnormal neuron pruning during early development, it could have a wide array of symptoms, but that understanding may someday lead to genetic treatments for sever cases, better early childhood interventions, etc.

I do think that the current ASD umbrella as written in the DSM is so broad as to seem nearly meaningless when take in isolation. It’s not meant to be in isolation however, it’s defined first and foremost as a disorder, so the symptoms need to cross some threshold of tolerable. It’s also associated with a growing body of research as to how nervous system development can cause related clusters of symptoms.

Is autism as we understand it scientifically accurate? Probably about as much as anything hovering in the intersection of social sciences and medicine. It does have some predictive power. If you meet the diagnostic criteria for autism you are likely to have certain comorbidities for example. Having certain autistic traits are good predictors of certain outcomes later in life. And we do have better therapies especially for young people than we have in the past.

The fact that people can have non-overlapping clusters of traits and still be autistic does seem problematic. It may not be the right model. Just my $.02, I’m not the autism researcher in this convo, but I am autistic :)

coldtea an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

No so different things, and not so different ways. The "if you met one, you met one" is overplayed.

The fact that they don't is why diagnostic tests exist and work.

XCSme 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I said that if everyone is neurodivergent, then no one is.

Same with IQ, if everyone is 150IQ, then everyone is still 100IQ, as per the definition, so "normal".

Divergence can only be mentioned when talking a base value to diverge from. What if neurotypicals are actually the neurodivergent ones?

coldtea an hour ago | parent | next [-]

>What if neurotypicals are actually the neurodivergent ones?

That would need them to be the minority, which they are not.

Same way sight is not the special case, blindness is.

hoppp an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Typicals are the neurotype that reproduces fastest, that's it.

coldtea an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, no. Autistic people pretty reliably score high on a set of diagnostics test for example, whereas others do not.

For ASD 3 and 2 it's even easier to see it's not "everyone".

hbcondo714 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

@SubiculumCode, thanks for this comment and helping us understand better. Is there by chance a way to contact you about your research & expertise or would you mind contacting me using my profile info? I built https://behavior.today and would love to connect on this topic. Thanks!

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
throw939ii44 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Genetics does not explain steep raise in last a few decades.

Anyway, we do not really know what is causing it, have no real idea what it even is. But we must apply occam's razor very very quickly!

SubiculumCode 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

First, and foremost, the rise in autism rates is due to more sensitive instruments, a broadening of some inclusion criteria between DSM 4 and 5, more awareness of autism, less stigma associated with autism, services attached to autism diagnosis. I believe current research suggests these don't account for all the rise, but does account for most of it.

If I were to include additional biological possibilities, I'd include: a) birth control -> waiting to have children until a later age, more de novo mutations due to age. b) assortive mating, since some careers tend to attract those on the within and on the edges of the spectrum., c) perhaps controversially, and with the very little research on the subject, endocrine disruption from plastic waste exposures.

longhaul an hour ago | parent | next [-]

@SubiculumCode - replying as you are a researcher in this field. There is an increase in profound autism globally (I think this is the new naming to differentiate severe autism) which isn’t explained by sensitive instruments or inclusion criteria. You just don’t need them to identify profound autism, it is that obvious. Affected people need caregivers for life also causing severe mental and financial stress. It will only help your research to investigate this increase which perhaps will lead to medical breakthroughs.

throw939ii44 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Severe autism is on raise as well, and that has stable diagnoses over several years. Plus general cognitive decline in last a few decades is also documented.

Is it politically correct to write about later stage pregnancies? It would be insta ban only a few years ago.

Perhaps soon we will be able to openly discus something else, that may cause endocrine disruption, not just plastics!

javanissen 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

We already know that most of the increase, even in diagnosis of level 3 autism, is due to diagnostic shifting/switching (as explained pretty well here: https://youtu.be/BdpSfrD3Nzs). We also know there are reasonably well supported risk factors that are increasing in prevalence; e.g. father aged >50 at the time of birth.

> general cognitive decline

According to whom? The Flynn effect famously says the opposite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

jasonpeacock 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The steep rise in the last few decades is primarily due to increased awareness and expanded definition/diagnoses.

john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Genetics does not explain steep raise in last a few decades.

as we built better telescopes, we found more stars

coldtea an hour ago | parent [-]

Quick and cheap explanation many use, but not the case. Severe autism is also on the rise, and that doesn't need special telescopes, it's just evident.

autoexec 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It's entirely possible that the ability of doctors to diagnose even severe autism has improved, for example a family doctor who sees a young child with very low IQ may not be surprised by undeveloped language skills and may not recognize that as autism specifically. It's also possible that the increasing destigmatizing of mental/developmental disorders and increased awareness of autism in general could result in more parents and doctors seeking proper assessments. The sad reality is that there are still places where autism is likely to be seen a spiritual condition, a witch's curse, or demonic possession.

john_strinlai 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

>but not the case

like all things in life, it's not the only variable. but better recognition is absolutely a factor.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
s1artibartfast 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When autism is discussed as a culmination of denovo mutations, one thing that I dont understand is how this is reconciled with the history of the species.

It seems there is a high rate of mutations, making the non-mutant ensemble incredibly fragile. How did this work in the past? Was there significant selection against mutant varieties?

SubiculumCode 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Genetic contributors to autism include:

1. common variants. Common variants are genetic variants weakly associated with autism that we all have to some degree or another, and that only result in autism given a sufficient number of them are found in a person..or at least that's a common idea and pretty well supported. These variants are inherited.

2. rare de novo variants: These are spontaneous genetic variants that the parents did not have, but there was a mutation during production of sperm, for example. Many times, rare de novo variants that occur in highly conserved genes cause tremendous neurodevelopmental problems, spanning death often prenatally, other conditions, and for, autism, most frequently with severe intellectual disability.

Common variants are heritable and common, and are part of the normal spectrum. Only with a very large load do these result in the severest conditions, I think, like intellectual disability.

Occurrence of rare de novo variants are associated with things like age of father (older, less reliable production of sperm without genetic mutations), pesticide exposures, etc.

There is also a real immune factor involved, as well as environmental exposures, which can interact with genes.

s1artibartfast 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Is there an understanding of the relative prevalence of each type in modern society? Thinking about changing rates of diagnosis, with common circulating variants, it seems like changes to detection and classification would be the only explanation for rate change.

1attice 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's a good question with a neat answer: assortive mating can amplify a randomly occurring gene by sexual selection. Read on for the details.

Suppose that there was a gene that made you more likely to be good at white collar thinkwork. You meet your partner at a professional event and have a baby. The baby now has between zero and two copies of the gene. And depending on gene dominance, the probability of at least repeating the ratio of the previous generation is like 75% IIRC.

Repeat, and fold back in. Next generation, you have a couple folks with both mutations, who exhibit an even stronger affinity for quiet thoughtful work (and people). Their kids will have a 100% chance of carrying at least one copy, right? The numbers for the third gen will be even higher.

This is all massively simplified but yeah. Mendel has the answers. The picture is even clearer if you suppose multiple genes whose effects stack, which appears to be the case with the ol 'tism.

And, finally, there is the lived experience of why this happens so much. Speaking as someone on the spec, I could never imagine life partnership with an allistic person, nor can I imagine such a person putting up with my deficiencies and quirks. Moreover, quite literally all my friends are also autspec and would never interface with someone who isn't. So I believe ASD is strongly selected for by people with ASD.

But given the volumes I'd expect we are in the hockey stick armpit of an exponential curve. Like HIV bubbling away in 1950s Africa long before we even had a name for the condition, nineteenth century colonial industrialism probably quietly worked up a stock of the relevant mutations, and the mutants found each other in the grand blender of the 20th century's upheavals.

As it were, silicon valley is one of the precipitants of sex, war, and intellect.

gignico 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I thought the US government had just decided that the cause of autism was vaccines </sarcasm>

SubiculumCode 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

no sarcasm tags needed unfortunately, and we autism scientists are very worried/ For example, as I submitted a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49422954

emptybits 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No need for your </sarcasm> tag. The United States makes repeated claims linking childhood vaccines to autism.

https://www.factcheck.org/2026/08/trump-and-rfk-jr-repeat-fa...

maddie0 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Come now! It is clear that the sarcasm indicator wasn't suggesting that the government didn't really announce that. The sarcasm was in the invocation of governmental authority, which is thereby implied to be ill-founded and not worth listening to.