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| ▲ | bcraven 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I recommend everyone watch the documentary First Footprints[0], it is the most wondrous thing I have ever seen. The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago.[1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-anci... | | |
| ▲ | lisper 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanks. I don't have time to watch the video, but the article still leaves me skeptical. Matching myths to past events seems to me fraught with all the same potential pitfalls as matching them to future events and thence labeling them as prophecies, especially when the event in question is as common as a volcano erupting. But I will admit it's not entirely implausible either. | | |
| ▲ | nkoren 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I also don't have time to watch the video, but am somewhat familiar with the topic. One of the primary themes of the dreamtime stories is about the origins of various landforms: how this hill got here, how this valley got there, etc. They're often quite detailed, because explaining the unique quirks of the landscape is part of the appeal. So, not just a generic "why the valley is here" stories, but specific "why the valley has seven sharp zig-zag kinks in it" kind of stories. There are a number of such stories which tell about landforms which have been under the ocean for 11,000 years, since the great meltwater pulses raised the ocean at the end of the ice age. Long after the stories were documented by anthropologists -- who thought it was unusual that so much mythology would be concerned with the topography of the seafloor -- sonar was invented, which confirmed that the landforms existed more or less exactly as the stories said. So personally I think that's pretty hard proof of at least 11,000 years of accurate oral tradition. | |
| ▲ | _bernd 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have no proof on hand but I have seen for instance a documentary on the French German station ARTE tv where they featured a kind of crazy dude who have gone through more or less every oral story of a tribe, the western world actually have written down.
Then he started to compare and traced bits and pieces and this is really crazy who many parallels you will find.
He then together with anthropologist estimated how old these stories might could be, based on travels and migrations like those of the caretakers... | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You’re making a very glib conclusion. Please, if you have an interest, make an effort to learn more about this subject. It’s not just matching myths .. its recording a history of geologically recorded events, along song lines actually walked where those geological events occurred. “Prophecies” is a very euro-centric way to dismiss the subject. Indeed, there is encoding for you to be discovered, which has been rigorously demonstrated. Dig deeper. | | |
| ▲ | FloorEgg 3 days ago | parent [-] | | The whole point of hacker news is to converse curiously. It's stated clearly in the guidelines. Here is a person encouraging curiosity and getting down voted. Why is the dismissive non-curious comment not getting down voted? Am I in denial about whether the curios community still exists here? To recognize the topic on hand... When a native community shares an oral tradition that accurately describes something that's been under water for 12+ thousand years despite not having the technology to map the sea floor that's pretty strong evidence in the accuracy of their ability to persist accuracy through oral tradition. Parent is entirely valid in encouraging curiosity in this subject to anyone who is dismissive of it. | | |
| ▲ | done_lurking a day ago | parent [-] | | ggp isn't being dismissive or incurious. They say they are skeptical of the reasoning used in the science.org article, but are still open to the accepting the conclusion. Does being curious mean you aren't allowed to question anything? gp is probably being downvoted for dismissing ggp's concerns with a trite "please educate yourself" and not actually referencing anything to read. Telling someone else they are wrong and to go find evidence to support your own opposing view may technically be "encouraging curiosity" but it's certainly not curious itself. | | |
| ▲ | FloorEgg 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | I re-read the comment you refer to as ggp and I agree with you completely. I must have gotten my wires crossed about which comment was being referred to. |
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| ▲ | octopoc 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here's another example (this from Europe) of a story that probably originates 100,000 years ago: https://www.iflscience.com/an-ancient-human-story-about-the-... TLDR: the story is about a constellation that is seven sisters, but one is hiding; and that constellation does indeed have seven stars, but one hasn't been visible for 100k years. |
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| ▲ | thaumasiotes 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago. This is another thing that you can't know. If there is a match between an inferred geological event and a mythological event, you'd still have to ask "what is the rate of this happening by coincidence?" | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Your mistake is leaning on the mythology, having, it seems, not actually listened to the songs and stories yourself, directly. There is no coincidence - the song lines record real geological events, such as the lowering of the oceans, the formations of islands, the drying up of lakes - on an ancient timeline - all of which are verified in the geological record. Please, do not lean so hard on the petard of treating this subject as one of methods and coincidence. These are real cultural artifacts, which encode real events. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > These are real cultural artifacts, which encode real events. The total amount of evidence for the second half of your claim is zero, and you should realize that. It's something people want to believe, but it's not something there is any reason to believe. | | |
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| ▲ | lukan 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | And then you'd still have to ask yourself, whether anything is real or a simulation, or a dream of god, etc. Otherwise history is indeed much guesswork, as we don't have a timemachine and rely on lot's of indirect evidence for everything. | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This is like looking at a seismograph or an electrocardiogram and concluding that it doesn’t represent anything worth knowing “because nothing is real”, “they were just dreaming because they were primitive”, or “we don’t have a <mythological and impossible device> to prove these stories”. We do have methods of proving these stories - we can dig trenches and see the history as it was described, in the land itself. Please, do not dismiss this on the basis of some authoritarian postulates about not having developed your own cultures time machines. Song lines literally are a verifiable time record. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I was mainly mocking the absolutistic comment above, I find it very possible that the aborigines culture remembers very old events and that there can be proof in the conventional sense for it. But it would be indirect proof. | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It is direct proof in the geological record, what part of that are you just failing to understand? | | |
| ▲ | lukan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you have the qualification to evaluate, whether some parts in the soil is a direct proof of some oral telling? Do you know their language? Can you rule out missunderstanding, misstranslation or plain fraud? I cannot, so I fail to understand the absolute direct proof here.
Do you have a researcher btw. who says there is absolute proof for this? I doubt it, I rather think their language is along the lines of: "those findings indicate that ..". "The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years." And especially for this claim of yours, citing from the one given link: "Eruption 37,000 years ago may have sparked a legend about four giants" Notice the "may"? | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 4 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | lukan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I did research and just gave you a quote that says maybe. I have zero reason to assume your position there is definitely proof for the claim 40000 years memory to be correct. "Do your own research for my claim" doesn't work around here. | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 4 days ago | parent [-] | | If you weren’t so arrogant you could have gone on a journey of your own discovery. That is important on matters of great cultural significance such as this - do your own investigation and gain your own understanding, honestly - don’t just accept what you’ve been conditioned to think about it. The requirement to be honest goes both ways. Because the original caretakers stories have been so degraded by imperialist idealogues over the centuries, the onus is on us in the modern era, to make the effort of discovery ourselves. What you must understand, from your perspective as the ‘protector of truth in this community’, is that colonial disruption severely damaged the transmission and integrity of Aboriginal oral traditions, so modern people (scientists, researchers, and society) must actively recover and validate what remains rather than relying solely on what was passed down intact. Your desire to achieve the perception of “scientific rigor” in this discussion is manifesting the very imperialist attitude which degraded these peoples’ wonderful, amazing culture, in the first place. So, get off your horse and learn some things. Make an effort to educate yourself and don’t just play the imperialist-knows-best card. This should get you started at least: Nunn, P.D. & Reid, N.J. (2016). “Aboriginal Memories of Inundation of the Australian Coast Dating from More than 7000 Years Ago.” Australian Geographer, 47(1), 11–47.
DOI: 10.1080/00049182.2015.1077539 Nunn, P.D. (2016). “Australian Aboriginal traditions about coastal change reconciled with postglacial sea-level history: a first synthesis.” Environment and History, 22(3), 393–420.
DOI: 10.3197/096734016X14661540219311 Related earlier/conference work includes Reid, Nunn & Sharpe (2014) on Indigenous Australian stories and sea-level change (proceedings of the Foundation for Endangered Languages conference). “The Legend of Budj Bim - The Story: The Gunditjmara [Dreaming] narrative tells of a creator being named Budj Bim ("high head") whose teeth and blood became the molten lava and scoria flowing to the sea during a violent eruption.The Science: Radiometric dating confirms the [Budj Bim] volcano last erupted approximately 37,000 years ago, meaning the oral tradition passed down through generations via songlines matches actual geological events from the Pleistocene epoch.” Benjamin, J. et al. (2023). “Stone artefacts on the seabed at a submerged freshwater spring confirm a drowned cultural landscape in Murujuga, Western Australia.” Quaternary Science Reviews. Scientific American coverage (2024) of related work by Mick O’Leary and others describes elders recognising digital models of now-submerged watering holes as part of a songline known for generations, consistent with a landscape from >7,000 years ago when sea levels were much lower. Broader context appears in papers on Murujuga/Dampier Archipelago submerged archaeology (e.g., Benjamin et al. 2020 on the first confirmed Australian underwater Indigenous sites) and predictive modelling for the Rottnest Shelf (e.g., a 2025 Journal of Maritime Archaeology paper evaluating archaeological potential, which references Noongar stories of walking to Rottnest Island.” Note: there is much, much more for you to discover - I’m only relaying the experience for which I have great affinity, having grown up visiting Rottnest Island myself, many times. Stop being a dickhead about it, and go on the journey, mate. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | "If you weren’t so arrogant you could have gone on a journey of your own discovery." Thanks, but I did travel the world (and libaries) quite a bit and also was in the outback at places where few other souls go. Still, I do see a difference with having a sound hypothesis - and having solid proof.
And I do not see actual researchers making claims as you do. They present their theory and data. Arrogance is rather associated with being very sure of oneself without having the data to back it up. | | |
| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I too have been all over the outback, and I find your skepticism unwarranted. If you’d had any time with the culture, you’d understand how important it is for us to value their stories, rather than push imperialism at them. That you are unsatisfied is of no relevance to the fact that the studies are solid. The evidence is in the stories and the geological record. I hope there is much, much more research done on this subject in the near future, for some to criticize and others to truly value an incredibly important culture, on the brink of extinction, precisely because of the types of Euro-centric, imperialist views you proffer being applied to their existence. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 3 days ago | parent [-] | | "rather than push imperialism at them." Dude, all I am saying is that I have not read any claims by any researchers that there is absolute proof of any sort.
You have such a claim, then just show it. And imperialism has nothing to do with whether the oral history of the aborigines goes back 40 000 or 10 000 or just 1000 years. British imperialism succeded, because they had superior weapons. | | |
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| ▲ | smallnix 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I remember they found remnants of a 10k yr old ritual ground that matches the ritual in the oral tradition. Found it https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w | | |
| ▲ | vintermann 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There is also a legend of incestuous royals connected to the Boyne valley tombs in Ireland, written down in the 12th century. DNA examination of a person buried in the tombs found that his parents were indeed very closely related. This suggests almost 5000 years of oral tradition, even surviving a fairly big cultural replacement event. If that can happen, it's not so surprising a story can last 20-30000 years either - especially not if there's not much else making a similar impression to tell stories about. |
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| ▲ | MomsAVoxell 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Indeed, there are scientific studies which correlate specific tales to geologic events which occurred in the tens of thousands of years ago - there are multiple studies now. The one I know of by way of personal experience (heard the songs, been there many times) is the tale of the creation of Wadjemup (Rottnest Island) ... I don’t have references handy at the moment - I leave it up to you as an exercise to go on a course of interesting discovery - because there are some very fascinating papers for you to read, if you maintain the interest in the subject. The treatise on the potential crypto mechanisms (kinship system in a multi-lingual environment) is extremely fascinating, if I get a chance to find the references in a few days or so I’ll try to follow up … but anyway, do go do your own search, it is worth the journey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcH95AfU58 | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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