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theturtletalks 5 hours ago

Harnesses are the next frontier. If LLMs are electricity, harnesses are the “electronics.” Right now, it’s like an AC vs DC between Claude and ChatGPT, but once that settles, the harnesses will be the actual value providers.

And Pi is the best harness because of the amazing extension system. You can build extensions that turn Pi into a stock trader, software factory, anything. I tried switching to another harness but none have extension functionality as good as Pi.

Even if there is a new harness or agent project, I tell Pi to dig into the codebase and then make me an extension that brings that functionality into Pi. I did it with Prime Intellect’s and Deepseek’s harnesses and those are built on Pi.

amelius 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If LLMs are electricity, harnesses are the “electronics.” (...) the harnesses will be the actual value providers.

Don't get ahead of yourself. Harnesses are not exactly rocket science and will be a commodity.

The real value providers here are the hardware, then the LLM as a distant second, and at a much larger distance the harness.

conmod278 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.latent.space/p/attention-interface

Labs are now post-training models with Harness so that Harness now gets absorbed into the weights.

layer8 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’d say that harnesses almost by definition are the parts that you want to keep customizable. That won’t get absorbed into the weights.

datsci_est_2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

Depends on your product strategy. If you only care about how your model will be used in the context of a harness (perhaps, specifically the harness that you designed), then the incentive is plainly there to optimize the weights within the context of the harness.

goosejuice 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My naive intuition is that as harnesses converge on shape and models improve the first party advantage will mostly disappear.

gritzko 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Either part can be branded a "commodity" or a "sovereign privilege" depending on supply and demand.

Solar goes all the way up => power is commodity.

Some hyperscaler goes bankrupt => hardware is commodity.

Models get real good => output is a commodity, no profitable problems to solve anymore.

Open source models get good => models are commodity.

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was saying more the custom skills and extensions that make the harness not a commodity. Yes people will use Claude Code, Codex, or Pi but their customizations will make their harness unique and more powerful.

romanhounds 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

mpawelski 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Harnesses are the next frontier. If LLMs are electricity, harnesses are the “electronics.”

I really though this comment was a satire ...

DarmokTanagra 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Its literally the same people who were making hyperbolic crypto claims a few years ago.

This entire forum is infested with shameless hype chasers and biological linkedin bots.

wwalexander 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

E = mc^2 + AI

_superposition_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In a sense they are the last frontier imo. At some point a harness will be built that can modify itself to fit the needs of the majority of people's workflows and evolve with them.

layer8 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Then people will want to share and exchange their evolved harnesses. Ways will be found to modularize certain aspects to enable mixing and matching.

I’m thinking of how in cyberpunk, people are replacing their cybernetic enhancements all the time. You could alternatively bioengineer your own body towards the desired outcomes, but that’s more constrained by the trajectory your body has already taken, whereas the promise of cybernetic parts is that they are more independently replaceable. (Probably an illusion in practice, but I’m talking about the fictional ideal.)

As another analogy, monolithic software tends to quickly become hard to change significantly, whereas a plugin architecture tends to be more flexible and modular, and people can share and combine their various plugins.

grey-area 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sadly, many people have bought into the cult that LLMs will lead to AGI. I guess if that is your worldview then all this babbling about new frontiers makes more sense.

They probably used an LLM to come up with this bizarre metaphor.

jbstack 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I find it difficult to understand people who are wildly skeptical about LLMs leading to AGI (assuming we can even agree on what that means). Consider:

- They can already reason better than many humans and are still improving all the time

- Harnesses are improving all the time

- We're already exploring things like long term memory, long term goals, and other things that humans have which LLMs traditionally lack

- An AI agent can read and reason about every piece of AI research ever published, including looking for insights that humans may have missed. A team of humans could never do this even if they dedicated their whole lives to it.

- They can design and execute experiments on a mass scale to determine what does and doesn't work

- Large AI labs have more than sufficient resources and motivation to throw at the problem, and are in fact doing this.

Topfi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

So you believe LLMs (despite their inherent deficiencies vs EBMs [0], etc.) can lead to what you'd consider AGI, but you also admit that there is no agreement what AGI actually would be and you further don't provide your own definition? But you are surprised that some (like e.g. Yann LeCun (I am very convinced by his published works beyond his authority in the field, but am willing to admit his could be seen as a biased position)) are skeptical?

If you provide what you'd consider AGI, we may not agree on that definition, but I and other skeptics could at least discuss with you whether A.) that seems reasonably achievable given LLMs inherent limitations and B.) whether any of what you'd listed is actually likely to get us there.

As it stands, neither is possible without knowing what you believe AGI to be, but for what it's worth, coming from someone who both does see LLMs as valuable tools but whose definition for AGI also contains, among other things, reliable self-assessment of factual uncertainty [1] and basic counting and grade school maths [0][2] without tools or eternally scaling training data, I have yet to read any evidence that LLMs can achieve my, rather strict, metric for AGI.

These models are amazing tools, their ability to leverage massive amounts of high quality training data to further sciences truly awe inspiring, but that does not mean intelligence, at least in my definition that requires some internals these models have never been proven to possess. It's nuts that solving Erdos problems can be done by a model which struggles to count or solve a sudoku without external tools, but that's where the technology has been for years now and no paper I have read has shown that LLMs can overcome that to any scalable degree. You can push further with training data, but the limitations remain, albeit less noticeable. Any externalities, be it tools (self-scripted or called by the model), external memory solutions of all shapes and sizes, etc. I personally also feel cannot be required for or lead towards AGI as intelligence may be better leveraged by such externalities, but should never require them, so much of your suggestion I feel shouldn't be considered even if one believes LLMs can yield intelligence. I will admit that I am very extreme here though, this is not a position held by everyone for good reason. At the end I will always point towards the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" of it all and that LLMs, in the face of any doubt, should be viewed akin to how Stockfish can play better than any grandmaster, but that does not mean intelligence, at least in my world.

If your definition for intelligence does not require basic arithmetics or an understanding of ones own knowledge gaps, then maybe LLMs can achieve that, but I'd push back on that truly rising to the AGI moniker. Maybe a more comprehensive or even my definition of AGI is possible whilst keeping the autoregressive nature after all, but there is no evidence supporting that by itself and quite a few things that haven't even begun to be overcome before something of that magnitude could be honestly considered.

It's akin to "let's colonise Mars by 2020 or 2030 or 2040 for sure, then terraform it" proposals. If that were possible, wouldn't we see a lot of these methods applied on earth and in a moon base long before (as in, we'd have had a permanent moon base in the early 2000s)? Same with LLMs, if they can truly yield AGI, we'd see some of the major deficiencies dealt with long before. The fact that we neither are terraforming earth, nor have any permanent off world colonies, nor have solved some of the listed, inherent limitations with LLMs by their design, that's what informs my skepticism that both are reasonably achievable in the timelines some industry "experts" (read hype merchants) propose on the regular. You tend to see some progress, a path toward solving actionable problems long before full implementation, at least in the real world...

[0] https://logicalintelligence.com/blog/energy-based-model-sudo...

[1] https://arxiv.org/html/2607.19367v1

[2] https://arxiv.org/html/2605.02028v2

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did I even mention AGI? All I’m saying is that we’re hitting a plateau with how good models are while harnesses are untapped potential. And with Pi, you can swap models like electricity companies. Yes for now, the electricity is better with some companies but this will stabilize.

And no I came up with the metaphor all on my own, send me the chat of you getting the LLM to come up with it. Why not argue based on merit instead of strawman and ad hominem attacks?

grey-area 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m afraid it’s a terrible metaphor, starting with the fact that LLMs are nothing like electricity, and the relation of harnesses to them is nothing like that of electronics to electricity, save perhaps one is a prerequisite of the other.

Harnesses (and the concept of agents before them) presuppose competence in LLMs which simply doesn’t exist.

rasputin243 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

“Just as electricity transformed almost everything 100 years ago, today I actually have a hard time thinking of an industry that I don’t think AI will transform in the next several years” - Andrew Ng

Avicebron 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Is it just a coincidence that he works in the space and will directly benefit if this is true?

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I didn’t come with the electricity idea, it was Sam Altman saying it will be like a utility down the line and metered[0]. What would the “electronics” be in your opinion?

0. https://www.businessinsider.com/sam-altman-ai-utility-electr...

grey-area 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Altman is a salesman selling flimflam to people who should know better.

His idea of metering is predicated on the thing he’s selling being AGI, it is not, and all his predictions have turned to dust.

Also that isn’t how metaphors work - they illuminate by comparison, if the comparison is not close they are not useful.

theturtletalks 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If it is metered and like a utility, Sam Altman will not benefit alone. All the models will have plateaued and you can swap for any of them. Then the only differentiator is the harness.

I don’t believe in AGI, but that doesn’t mean I don’t find AI useful. I just understand that the correct harness can take them to the next level.

qarl2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> presuppose competence in LLMs which simply doesn’t exist.

Then how do you explain the wild success at using them for development?

grey-area 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

Guided by humans, code generators which have ingested the worlds’ code and can recognise and generate patterns can be useful tools. I wouldn’t personally qualify it as a wild success as we are early and there are significant downsides.

That doesn’t make them intelligent agents which think independently.

sph 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Sadly, many people have bought into the cult that LLMs will lead to AGI

You can never tell if the goomba opinion of the forum will agree we have reached AGI (seen that happen on a few threads lately) or will readily call that a ludicrous proposition.

PepegaRoach 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

jacobgold 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> ...once that settles, the harnesses will be the actual value providers.

The words "once that settles" are doing historic levels of work here.

No human on earth has a clear idea whether model technology will settle tomorrow or 100 years from now.

There's every reason to expect architectural breakthroughs will keep being discovered and causing nuclear blasts of forward progress.

jrflo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've never used Pi but I don't see why you can't use stock codex or claude code for the same purpose, what makes Pi special? I've built plenty of custom harnesses on top of claude code and codex using custom skills or simple markdown instructions and subagents. Never had any issues or limitations with that approach.

I do agree that harnesses are going to extend AI capabilities a lot in the next year, but after reading Pi's page I don't see anything that makes it particularly special in terms of functionality, other than being more provider-agnostic.

throwup238 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For one you can ask Pi to create a TUI extension, so along with the agent interface you can add whatever custom TUI you need, such as portfolio stock tickers, alerts, whatever you want.

Many of my harnesses eventually turn into customized UIs around the chat interface.

lebek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Codex and Claude historically had more bloat in their system prompt and tools. Pi is minimal by design so more adaptable. But to be fair Claude Code is moving in the Pi direction with a small system prompt.

ni10c 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Author here. I think our website could be much clearer - but Pi is fundamentally easier to mold than other harnesses. It’s not magic but it strikes the balance well of letting you shape it extensively without letting you break it.

gritzko 3 hours ago | parent [-]

A harness is the bottom layer of a pie that gets fed into the model. In my project, I count 7 more layers on top of it https://replicated.live/blog/wiki They all affect consistency, coherence, token efficiency. Probably we need some broader term. Like "information architecture", "knowledge architecture"? It's not just shoveling Markdown to nvidias, after all.

Aardwolf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If LLMs are oxen, harnesses are... the harnesses

qarl2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah. This is pretty clearly the origin of the usage.

The harness facilitates the work animal doing work for you.

Not climbing harnesses to keep you safe.

GodelNumbering 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a plug, but relevant. I recently added a 'build native tools on the fly' functionality to Dirac (https://github.com/dirac-run/dirac) that works like:

1. You can use the '/new-tool' and tell what kind of tool you want (including whether it should be task-scoped, workspace-scoped, or global), the model builds it, the harness runs validation and other tests until the tool is ready

2. The model decides that in such and such task, it would be helpful to have a tool like this, it can build a task-scoped tool.

In either scenario, the tool catalog is rebuilt, and the new tool is instantly available in the next turn.

_superposition_ 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This type of modification of the harness on the fly to fit the need is the future. The only thing left after that is the mobile front. I think static app store type software as we know it is a thing of the past. You'll only ever need one self modifying app.

timbowhite 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pi's most popular extensions, by download count:

https://pi.dev/packages?type=extension

grim_io 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think so.

What I can see is a world where we end up with a Chromium-shaped harness, a fully featured standard implementation everyone builds against, because doing every single thing yourself would be crazy.

The antithesis to Pi, if you will.

4 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
sejje 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What did you bring over from prime-agent? (I use prime-agent as my daily since it launched)

I primarily like how it manages sessions, and how agents can easily reference other sessions.

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Something like this since Prime Intellect uses RLM under the hood:

https://github.com/manojlds/pi-rlm

oceansky 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I want to move from Claude Desktop to Pi, but I found it a little unfriendly. Any tips to set it up?

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Pi doesn’t have a UI like Claude Desktop. It also doesn’t work with the Claude subscription, only API key and pricing.

So if you do want to use it, use the Codex sub. Once you install it, run Pi and /login and you’ll get login with ChatGPT. From there, Pi can tweak it’s settings if you ask. Check out their extensions (or ask Pi) and that will take you most of the way there.

What hiccups were you having?

goosejuice 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> It also doesn’t work with the Claude subscription, only API key and pricing.

Not out of the box, but you can add agent sdk. I'm not sure how great the results will be though.

zukzuk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I haven’t tried it myself yet but I’m under the impression that Hermes Agent might be what you’re looking for?

ni10c 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you be more specific regarding unfriendliness?

Topfi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please tell me this is satire, it reads like straight from the depths of LinkedIn where a while loop is seen as the second coming…

hliyan 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are human HN commenters now starting to speak in a dialect of Claudish?

epolanski 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both Claude and codex are unappealing, crap, generic agents that you have 0 control over.

Don't understand what people see in them.

irishcoffee 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How does Pi compare to vscode? Admittedly that is the only “agent/harness” I’ve ever used.

cyanydeez 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

what have you built other than a harness?

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I built a software factory and am now building a stock trader using opencandle extension[0] and a custom extension. For inspiration for how to tweak Pi, check out OMP, Prime Intellect, and Deepseek harnesses.

0. https://github.com/Kahtaf/OpenCandle

dominotw 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Prime Intellect

looking at the website. i can't really tell if they have benchmarks and measuremnts on how all that improves capablities over just using regular agent withtout all that

lebek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The harness is just another codebase for the model to write and optimize. The value is still very much in the model.

dominotw 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

i think its the opposite. claude code apparently removed hundreds of lines of system prompt because its not relavent anymore with newer models.

also i think its hard to build general harnesses if they were trained on specific harness architecture.

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes but Pi has had a minimal system prompt since inception. Skills and Pi extensions let you make a hyper specific harness for specific use cases. For general conversation, harnesses are overkill most times.

There’s evidence of harnesses making a smaller, weaker model perform better than SOTA and some benchmarks ban harnesses because it becomes too easy.

tokai 4 hours ago | parent [-]

All agentic editors/frameworks have skills and extensions and plugins?