| ▲ | The tragedy of the commons, AI edition(economist.com) |
| 69 points by simonpure 5 hours ago | 34 comments |
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| ▲ | dozerly 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Maybe we need a better-scaling legal system that does not take years to resolve simple disputes. I am not convinced AI can replace lawyers, but more people having access to the law without extremely costly fees does sound good to me. |
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| ▲ | newyankee 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With frontier models, I have found so many self contradicting points in Indian tax law that I would rather welcome a good AI helping to reduce discretionary powers of officers via highly subjective interpretations. This power asymmetry is basically the driver for a lot of developing world corruption. | | |
| ▲ | perching_aix 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I've been thinking about autoformalizing local laws using agents into TLA+ or something, but it's sufficiently past enough my actual skillset that I'm pretty sure I'd just end up wrestling with slop like a pig in the mud. It's a shame though, I consider law to be just kind of a shitty codebase, with natural language being tortured into cooperating, so it's a really natural fit. I'll probably yield to my temptations eventually and proceed anyways. Lord help me from all the creative but completely detached interpretations I'll land on. |
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| ▲ | majormajor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Moving from an adversarial each-party-has-lawyers-presenting-as-extreme-a-case-as-possibly-can-be-made-for-their-side system to something more like expert arbitrators and independent/court fact-finders would avoid the 'bury them in paperwork and filings' lawyer-cost explosions. Usually the concerns I've seen are around the lines of "the experts are gonna favor the powerful incumbents who they see a lot" buttttt if our system is already doing that AND costing way more anyway, barring entry entirely to many, is that so much worse? Even assuming we can't try to regulate that? | | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Such systems do exist in 'civil law' (vs common law) countries (which are most of them outside the English-speaking world). | |
| ▲ | eddythompson80 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | How is that different from the current system? Wouldn’t you just bury those fact-finders in paperwork? Or are you trying to shift the cost and responsibility of the discovery phase to the court instead? Would the court pass it through to the plaintiffs/defendants like the lawyers do or is it just covered by the state? |
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| ▲ | jay_kyburz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The answer is in the article. There needs to be a financial mechanism to deter nuance complaints. A small penalty for lodging a complaint and losing. This fee should help pay for the courts and reimburse and employer for time spent defending itself. (With the judge / magistrate able to wave the fee on compassionate grounds) | | |
| ▲ | tchalla 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | In Germany, the losing party pays 3x the court costs. The only issue is that everyone gets paid - the lawyer, the court etc. The only person that doesn’t get paid for their time investment is the person who is suing. | |
| ▲ | simonjgreen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a thing, and in the context of the article too. In UK, if an employment tribunal finds you’ve wasted the tribunals time they can and do order costs paid for both the tribunal and other party. Odd they don’t mention it. | |
| ▲ | teddyh 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | s/nuance/nuisance/
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| ▲ | MichaelZuo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t see how that helps? A lawyer isn’t going to sign on to take liability risk unless they spend quite a lot of time analyzing the AI’s outputs for possible blunders? So it structurally can’t cost significantly less. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway89864 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Lawyers normally don't have any liability risks, no? And reputational risks are very limited, a lawyer can always point to a judge, to the other lawyer, to circumstances, and away from their own (or the AI's output) blunder. |
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| ▲ | mwkaufma 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tellingly, the legal tendency The Economist finds alarming involves workers asserting their rights. |
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| ▲ | Gander5739 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | From the article: "Free, AI-powered legal advice should be good news for workers. Instead, it is proving to be a tragedy of the commons. For workers with genuine grievances, the surge in demand means longer waits for justice. For employers, it means bigger legal bills to respond to claims, both well-founded or fantastical. In the age of AI, a system intended to provide access to justice suffers from, if anything, too much access." | | |
| ▲ | theptip 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I found this article quite myopic. This is not a “tragedy of the commons”, it’s just a deficit of state capacity. The state needs to use AI to make bureaucracy instantaneous. That’s the only option, unless you ban AI for this kind of thing (not gonna happen). | | |
| ▲ | eddythompson80 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > it’s just a deficit of state capacity. That’s what a “tragedy of the commons” is though. The degradation of a shared resource (state capacity) by people acting in their own best interest. The state using AI “to make bureaucracy instantaneous” is a tragedy of the commons. The experience is degraded because before you trusted your grievance will be heard, but now you might get auto rejected by an AI. It’s pretty much the definition of the phrase. | |
| ▲ | zdragnar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | State capacity is a common good though, and AI makes abusing it much easier. | | | |
| ▲ | Gander5739 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So how do you propose to deal with the inevitable errors using AI would cause? | | |
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| ▲ | keeda 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | TFA ends on this note though, which seems pro-labor: > But it would present employers with a different problem. If AI fulfils its promise, it could before long give every worker the equivalent of a top-flight lawyer in their pocket, able to file precisely constructed cases against their bosses at will. A deluge of slop claims could give way to a wave of winning ones. Labour said its act would shift power from employers to workers. With AI, power will move faster and further than the politicians imagined. |
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| ▲ | Versipelle 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://archive.ph/mi3zu |
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| ▲ | jackvalentine 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even the “pre-case” legal stuff is out of control. In my Australian organisation we’ve noticed a deluge of what I can only call “privacy demands” that talk the talk… but have the jurisdiction or subject legislation wrong. But AI told them they could demand these things (even if it would be illegal for us to comply! Think KYC stuff.) and they don’t have the skill to criticise the AI or know when to stop. |
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| ▲ | sscaryterry 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://archive.is/mi3zu |
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| ▲ | suoloordi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://archive.ph/mi3zu |
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| ▲ | jmyeet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So I have to wonder if this article written about clogging up employment courts with AI-generated cases is itself generated because the premise (in the title and the article) refers to the "tragedy of the commons", which was debunked almost 20 years ago. For a bit of history, the term was the title of a 1968 essay [1] based in part on ideas that originated earlier. It becamse popular as a driver for privatization of government services in many Western nations based on the (flawed) idea that privatization would increase "efficiency". All it did was transfer wealth from customers with inelastic demand to newly-minted private owners. But it never seemed to match reality. The opposite seemed to be true: private resources became over-exploited whereas shared or public resources were successfully managed and shared by communities across the world in some cases going back centuries. This culminated in Elinor Ostrom [2] winning the 2009 Nobel Prize in Economics for officially debunking the idea. Now I understand how ordinary people still quote this debunked idea. It did become popular. But journalists, particularly those for a publication called The Economist, should know better. [1]: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom |
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| ▲ | TeMPOraL 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's the first time I hear something like this; if that's true, then this must be one major case of meaning shift, because since forever I've known and used and seen used this term to refer to the flaws of privatization. The solution to tragedy of the commons is literally a central authority. It's, like, the opposite of "driver of privatization". | | |
| ▲ | kian an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Tragedies of the commons are often aimed to be 'resolved' through central authority, but another way of stating what's happening there is that they are being resolved by someone being granted the ownership right over the commons (in the cases you're mentioning, government). Therefor, it hasn't exactly meaning-shifted, but 'contextual' implications of the term for the reader are definitely bimodal with respect to privatization. | |
| ▲ | ang_cire 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tragedy of the Commons was specifically the idea that cooperation would fail due to selfish competition, so some force was needed to administer it. Economists used it to argue both for privatization and against, but always for top-down, authoritative control. In the US, it was almost always used as an anti-"socialist" argument for privatization, by arguing that the free market would in fact be an analogue for the "natural" competition, because as we all know the Free Market always finds the most equitable and consumer-desired outcome. I'd imagine in Europe it was more common to argue for government management. |
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| ▲ | ttoinou 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can have a tragedy or not, Ostrom didn’t show it’s always well managed by the public. One can say ‘tragedy of the commons’ while still knowing about solutions where it’s not a tragedy anymore |
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| ▲ | underlipton 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I'll read the article once I can get past the paywall, but something important to note in the meantime: "The tragedy of the commons" was debunked years ago: https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false... The features of successful systems, Ostrom and her colleagues found, include clear boundaries (the ‘community’ doing the managing must be well-defined); reliable monitoring of the shared resource; a reasonable balance of costs and benefits for participants; a predictable process for the fast and fair resolution of conflicts; an escalating series of punishments for cheaters; and good relationships between the community and other layers of authority, from household heads to international institutions.
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| ▲ | diogocp an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > The features of successful systems The tragedy of the commons is what happens in the unsuccessful systems. | |
| ▲ | Eueudhsbsj32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn't Ostrom just saying that with effective regulations informed by local knowledge, it is possible for shared resources to be successfully managed? The "tragedy of the commons" is just what happens in the absence of effective rules governing the use of a resource when individuals are free to act in their own interests. | |
| ▲ | rfv6723 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ostrom didn’t “debunk” the tragedy of the commons. She showed that it can be avoided when you have stable communities, clear boundaries, repeated interactions, monitoring, and real consequences for free riders. The problem is that those conditions are much harder to maintain in a highly mobile, anonymous modern society. When people can easily enter, exit, and dump costs on strangers, trust and enforcement break down — which is basically where the tragedy of the commons comes from. |
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