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john_strinlai 18 hours ago

for awhile, sure. but we can look at japan, germany, etc. and recognize that it wont be "forever".

edit: woops, i guess everyone apparently still hates japan and germany and will hate them forever, too. does everyone still hate spain?

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd really prefer not to learn the "don't put evil assholes in power" lesson the way Japan and Germany did.

They're basically brand-new countries.

john_strinlai 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

i hope that it is obvious i am not saying that...

my point was that a couple generations is usually enough to heal most animosity, assuming the offending events cease

certainly in a thousand years, ~no one will remember.

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent [-]

A couple generations plus a flattening of most major cities, and the deaths/imprisonment of the leadership responsible.

bcrosby95 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The second half never happened to Japans leaders despite being responsible for many atrocities in the region at the time.

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribuna...

john_strinlai 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

punishment of those responsible, sure.

i dont think flattening of most major cities is a requirement...

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> i dont think flattening of most major cities is a requirement...

Both of your chosen examples went through exactly that as part of their reputational change.

john_strinlai 18 hours ago | parent [-]

i can go dig up other examples of countries that did bad things which are forgiven now, if you'd like.

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Like the Confederacy?

Wait, bad example.

john_strinlai 18 hours ago | parent [-]

just wondering, do you want the US to be hated "forever"? or what is it that you are arguing for?

i thought it was a fairly obvious statement that over the thousands of years of history, many bad things have been done, but after several generations, we are able to heal.

if you think that in the year 2200, the world will still hate the US because of today, i disagree.

the year 2500? i doubt the people of that time, excepting a few ancient historians, will even know it happened.

"forever" is a long time.

ceejayoz 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> do you want the US to be hated "forever"?

No.

What I want and what I get don't always match up.

The US will suffer from this era on the international stage for generations, in a completely self-inflicted blow. Its continued existence as the present-day USA is by no means guaranteed, either.

Present-day Germany isn't Nazi Germany; I certainly hope people will hate Nazi Germany forever.

john_strinlai 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>The US will suffer from this era on the international stage for generations,

this is what i said earlier... generations? sure. forever? no.

so i guess we agree.

18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
yifanl 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You don't get to decide how you're hated is the point.

16 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
krapp 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Japan and Germany made it illegal to put the evil assholes in power. The US will do no such thing, we're going to keep voting for the evil assholes and every attempt we make at progress will simply be undermined and undone.

I don't see a way out of this without a fundamental transformation of the US. At the very least that looks like a Constitutional convention, repeal of FPTP and the electoral college, maybe even changing to a parliamentary system without a powerful executive. At worst it looks like civil war. Nothing on a lesser scale than than that is going to suffice. Expecting to simply return to normal with a vote for blue and pretend this never happened isn't going to work.

clark_dent 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A good proportion of the older generations still disdain or mock Germany as nazis-in-waiting. There may be an end to the damage done to their global reputation, but it's not here yet 80 years down the line.

SideburnsOfDoom 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> There may be an end to the damage done to their global reputation, but it's not here yet 80 years down

Let's not forget that in the early part of the 20th century, Germany was the powerhouse of mathematics and sciences such as physics and chemistry, to the extent that top scientists basically had to learn German (1) and/or study in Germany (2).

How long did it take Germany to recover that preeminent position?

Its a trick question: they did not recover it.

1) https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/162/how-did-german-b...

2) e.g.

> In 1926, Oppenheimer left Cambridge for the University of Göttingen to study under Max Born; Göttingen was one of the world's leading centers for theoretical physics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer#Early_ca...

ModernMech 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> to the extent that top scientists basically had to learn German

That reverberates even toady -- I had a physics professor who who learned German precisely because he wanted to read some original texts written by Boltzmann. Apparently he thought he was missing some nuance in the translations.

fabian2k 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I certainly hope that the US finds a less destructive way of changing their reputation than Germany did.