There's a coal mine here in Australia (NT I think) run by a company called Adani. When it was being proposed they did the usual "but think of all the taxes!" song and dance to get it approved.

It's never posted a profit despite about a billion in annual revenue, and so never paid a penny of corp tax.

Personally I think the tax authorities ought to take the line that a company posting losses like this is clearly not a viable, ongoing concern and ought to be wound up.

If Starbucks UK is a loss-making venture, they should have some explaining to do when they're opening new branches.

▲

perpetuallunch 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Carmichael coal mine in Queensland.

Queensland has a payroll tax, I don’t believe this is can be offset against losses, see here for more info https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/

GST is payable on goods they use and services they consume.

Mineral royalties are in Queensland https://qro.qld.gov.au/royalty/calculate-mineral/rates/

Employees of said company are required to pay income tax on their earnings.

So while it may be completely factual that a resource extraction company paid no tax on its corporate profits, it is not factually complete as there is tax revenue generated by the operation of the company.

A company that manages to generate no taxable profit isn’t necessarily committing tax evasion, that’s a crime. It is most likely practicing tax avoidance, which any economically rational actor ought to do.

Note, I’m not making a value judgement here.

There’s plenty of good arguments to be made that Australia’s taxation system is in need of reform, and many that I’m in favour but are beyond the scope of this discussion.

	▲	Nursie 38 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I think it's very easy to make a value judgement here. In this case, at the time they were proposing the project, Adani promised around $22 billion in taxes and royalties, and the industry body talked about enough money to fund schools, hospitals and other infrastructure for near to a century. The royalties they pay are in the order of a few tens of million per annum, and they pay no corporation tax because of the accounting games they play. The company outright lied about the benefits it would deliver when it was trying to win permission for the project and is actively trying not to fulfil those promises. Now, does this all point to a need for better legislation? 100%, but good luck with that when so many politicians walk into 'consultancy' jobs in the sector when they leave office. (Also the whole "Oh but they pay income tax for their employees" is such weasel-worded nonsense. Sure they do, it's a cost of doing business. So does everyone else. They should also be paying significant royalties and corporation tax, and be slapped with hefty fines for the games they're playing with profit hiding)

▲

bko 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Personally I think the tax authorities ought to take the line that a company posting serial losses like this is clearly not a viable, ongoing concern and ought to be wound up.

Tax authorities don't need to do this. Investors will. Where will the money come from? If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations.

> If Starbucks UK is a loss-making venture, they should have some explaining to do when they're opening new branches.

I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc.

▲

Swenrekcah 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc.

You are fundamentally missing the issue. What most of these multinationals do is to extract value from the places they operate but then move all the profit (in the books) to another tax jurisdiction, thereby not contributing to the community where they operate. Furthermore this undercuts local businesses, further impoverishing the area.

Global commerce and cooperation unlocks some truly great opportunities but the finance people can really bring ruin if allowed free reign.

▲

perpetuallunch 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The only sane argument to be made against this practice is that governments should make their tax systems more favourable to companies operating in their jurisdiction so they have no reason to move their profits to a more favourable jurisdiction.

Australia has, if I understand correctly, the highest corporate profit tax rate in the OECD. Higher than New Zealand, the US, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Japan, Turkey, China, Greece, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Iran, Zimbabwe, Iceland, Finland, Ukraine, Hungary, Qatar, Iceland, anyway…

Why wouldn’t you expatriate your profits and retain your loses as a multinational operating in Australia?

Australia is increasingly and rapidly driving itself toward a future where higher taxes result in lower tax revenues as individuals, business, and corporations pick up their capital and leave for jurisdictions with more favourable regulations and taxation.

Governments shouldn’t aim to maximise taxation, that always kills innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit. They should aim to optimise taxation to a point where businesses flourish and infrastructure is built and maintained, and otherwise generally not be heard from much at all.

▲

bko 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What value do they extract? They provide a good or service to denizens. Unless of course you believe in a serf model of government in which people are an asset of the state and everything should serve the states goals.

	▲	perpetuallunch 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		This is increasingly, and worryingly, becoming an ideology people are being swept up by. It doesn’t help that there are Card Carrying Socialist activists in our public school system in Australia, indoctrinating kids in to a politically and economically bent out of shape ideology. I don’t believe many Australians are aware of just how dangerously few steps away from the mouldy bread and rotting fish head soup lines version of “equality” we really are. Since when has government, of any sort, been a reliable arbiter of truth or wisdom? P.J. O’Rourke would be turning in his grave. Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. Socialists in Schools: https://www.victoriansocialists.org.au/campaigns/socialists-...

▲

Nursie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations.

That's the point, there are plenty of future prospects, but the company is playing accounting games to hide the profits.

> I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization.

No, we're just calling bullshit on the whole thing because we're tired of wealthy multinationals dodging taxes in our countries. That's how they should be contributing.

▲

perpetuallunch 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There are counties that have zero percent corporate profits tax.

Be like them and the corporations won’t have a need to offshore their profit.

The alternative is One World Government, which, in its lesser form, empire, has a nasty habit rapidly turning quite sour.

	▲	Nursie 39 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		This has to be one of the most ludicrous, cartoonishly libertarian things I've ever read. No thanks! I'd rather have a functioning society!

▲

Swenrekcah 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The worst part is that local competitors can’t use structuring like this to evade/avoid taxes, so eventually they go out of business.

	▲	Nursie 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yep, that's definitely one of the worse negatives here, they use this stuff to outcompete small businesses. The tax games directly fuel the enshittification of the British high street into a Starbucks/Costa wasteland.