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a_bonobo 6 hours ago

>On my visits to the Bay Area, I would ask AI researchers or interns why they are doing their current research or projects, when in a year or three agentic LLMs could probably do them;

This is such a weird point to make that doesn't become correct just because everyone makes it, all the time. Why clean the ocean if some magic future tech will clean them? Why save the world now if some benevolent AI is 'just around the corner' and will do it for us? And people have been making this point for years now, and it's not like my job got any easier. I just got more AI.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51294/waiting-for-the...

And I say that as someone who uses Claude Code in complex environments almost hourly; I, as the human, still have to do the thinking as Claude still 'can't jump' [1] and I have seen no evidence that they (or similar AI, any time soon) will 'jump' like a human brain does.

[1] https://www.tomzahavy.com/files/llms-cant-jump.pdf

germandiago an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> This is such a weird point to make

I think it is a great point to make, because if everyone really believed that AIs will do everything without human intervention in a handful of years, as the marketing repeats again and again (AGI, singularity, etc.) and have been saying for years... why then get bothered?

Because we DO know LLMs have their hallucinations, limitations, perform tasks not previously seen way worse than humans, etc. And it seems that, for now, there is not a good or magic solution to it, it is inherent limitations of the paradigm.

Yes, you can feed more and more and more (curated data) and eventually make AIs excellent at task X or Y, but then you spend your time specializing those engines. So the work does not really disappear, it just shifts and you make it more replicable for a bound set of problems.

Needless to say that at some point I prefer to learn (and combine with AIs, it is ok) than acritically getting inputs from something until I become totally useless.

Unless we have a paradigm for which a fully autonomous AI can do everything, this will just become improving our productivity in some ways, with all the in-between bottlenecks that it has.

nextlevelwizard 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Why spend money and time making the new flagship model when a future flagship model can make you the flagship model?

germandiago 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Then why not stop researching and doing the definitve model that will solve every problem? Why some people are not doing it?

Bc they are aware of the marketing and limitations. If they did believe it, then they would switch area of research.

joaquieneCnix 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> inherent limitations of the paradigm

This is such a weird point to make. We are currently ( only ) discovering that paradigm; we are not inventing anything. We found a bunch of laws that produce rather cool results but our paradigm is incomplete which leads more or less wordy or frame-rich weird stuff like hallucinations, singularity and so on ... it's childish, really and on that funny pseudo-profound, pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-spiritual ( personal opinion, if it gets you horny, you go, baby ) "universe consciousness unity, Rick James, bitch" level ...

Our bodies and minds need proper AI, not all the stuff we already outsource to middle and/or passionate men and women. Other species on the planet would certainly like to see us get augmented by AI so we can solve as many survivability issues as possible to keep as many ecosystems running long enough ... whatever that means but whether animals and plants are aware of chance and potential is another philosophical debate.

To individuals, software is a hammer and chisel, a knife, a brush and canvas, pen and paper, a reading help, and to a good amount of people it's a microscope and a fine scalpel.

To collectives, it's a tool to work on consensus and conventions, to share and gather.

It's baby steps for civilizations and it looks like our particular species is gonna get stuck in a puddle of our own monkey shit, with bottles of champagne in our hands and monkeys grinding up and down the few ivory towers in proximity.

> why then get bothered

Humans are on different levels. Most have decided that "nature realized the/a bug and wanted someone dead" or "their survival is a matter of chance" is not acceptable at all and some people decided that sabotage, poison, abuse, rape, murder are acceptable means to get chicken shit ...

The "paradigm" of life is far from explored/discovered, so we simply can't content ourselves with presumptions about inherent limitations of the LLM and AI paradigm for any other reason than to uncover ( not invent ) other parts of the paradigm.

We are happy with what AI can do for us but "AIs will do everything without human intervention" sounds weird because babies are born and the older they get and the less sabotaged ( vs influence, cultural manipulation ) they get to grow up, the more breadth and depth humans want to experience. For this they need to learn and use their hands & fingers. They need to feed body and mind to find what triggers what, and what excitement and curiosity are inherent and which can or need to be added/acquired/experienced extrinsically.

How many associations will we be able to make if AIs will do everything without human intervention?

decimalenough 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you meant to post this in response to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49174900?

seizethecheese an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes I double checked the quote is not in the article. HN is probably the best place on the internet for people actually reading the article, but this being the top comment here suggests that the majority of voters still do not read the article

pjmlp 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Robot powered factories still have humans there, the gist is that they are a tiny fraction of what a classical factory would require 50 years ago.

DrewADesign 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Same reason some think preserving the environment is pointless because the believers will ascend to heaven, either way. It’s a religion. It’s dogmatic nihilism.

bwhiting2356 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A fully automated utopia isn't just going to happen. Even with frontier models, the integrations, the evals, the UX, need a lot of work and someone needs to do it. After I've automated this thing I'll move on to the next task, this is what it means to be a software engineer.

ReactiveJelly an hour ago | parent [-]

An actual utopia would require never-before-seen democratic mandate from people who are currently on the brink of hot civil war

fhub 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I, as the human, still have to do the thinking as Claude still 'can't jump'

I still have to do quite a bit of thinking but the amount of of thinking I do per task is trending down. I agree LLMs are not good at abduction but very few humans are either and very few jobs/tasks require it. I can't talk for researchers jobs though. But perhaps fewer researchers would be desired by these labs (not none).

bigfishrunning 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I still have to do quite a bit of thinking but the amount of of thinking I do per task is trending down

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll hit your goal of zero thinking soon!

xprnio 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Trending towards the Homo Amens Mechanicus: the mechanical thoughtless human. What a goal

germandiago an hour ago | parent [-]

Only bc of this I will keep balancing what I do with my brain with what machines can do. dangerous outcome.

The IQ willl drop if we just become mechanical acritical people the same way muscles get worse if you do not exercise.

champagnepapi 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

jihadjihad 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I agree LLMs are not good at abduction but very few humans are either

I, too, am glad that few humans seem good at abduction.

selljamhere 5 hours ago | parent [-]

And I hope LLMs don't get better at it.

fhub 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Abduction" being the way the article used it as in "explanatory reasoning in justifying hypotheses". https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abduction/

guybedo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

although, if i'm out of tokens and have to wait a full day, i won't bother doing some things manually because the day i'll spend doing something won't take more than 1 hour the next day when tokens are available again.

MikeTheGreat 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That seems like a somewhat orthogonal point? Like, if I'm a carpenter and my batteries all run out / I can't actually power my power tools then the best course of action is to go home and recharge all the batteries instead of trying to hand-cut 100 pieces of lumber today. After all, the power tools can do it a lot faster (and with less effort) than I can.

I say this as someone who's watched a bunch of woodworking videos but hasn't actually done this myself :)

whatsgolden 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I read that more so as, I'm a carpenter and my batteries have all ran flat, so I'll put them on charge and do something else today. I'll cut up the lumber tomorrow when the batteries have charged.

sevenzero an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also people tend to forget that LLMs still just work on compressed data... Where are the MAJOR breakthroughs? Where is all the "crazy" AI output going? Software seemed to degrade in quality a lot in the recent years. All "improvements" LLMs go through are simply improvements on how to burn more tokens out of my pockets given that Claude now want an actual browser extension to "visually" confirm small changes every time I use it for UI. They are still just data parrots.

ChicagoDave an hour ago | parent [-]

There’s a small group of established architects talking about harness engineering, but I’m not sure anyone is actually listening to them.

And those same architects are quietly extracting real productivity from GenAI.

And even this write up skips that info by waving, “Some people…”

dgellow 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Mind sharing some names or something else we can learn about?

sevenzero 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Idk, maybe some people get crazy productivity out of LLMs. To me, going deep into the AI bubble, reading about terms I've never seen before just feels like some crypto bro bubble with people being too deep into the sauce to notice that these things are not the wonder machines they believe so hard in...

skew-aberration 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AI has made 'jumps' in demanding fields like leading mathematical research and has made advancements in AI research itself. Is now a good time to start a maths career? Is there a field of research (yours?) which is inherently (more) AI proof?

Btw, I think the discussion of Einstein's career in the paper you link is historically wrong in many respects, particularly the argument about 'weak signal'. Einstein was in fact working on some of the most mainstream and widely discussed problems in physics of the day, he is admired for the creativity of his solutions to those problems, and much of his work built incrementally on ideas and breakthroughs that came (long) before (as all research does).

Article suggests that a central motivation of Einstein's work was resolving action-at-a-distance in Newtonian mechanics - yet Maxwell introduced the same Lagrangian field theories for electromagnetism we use today 50 years earlier to solve the same problem for Farraday's laws of electromagnetism. Similar wave equations existed even earlier. Heaviside in 1893 extended this technique to gravity (matching 'weak field' GR) 20 years earlier. So this is perhaps the one aspect of gravity that had actually already been solved before Einstein. Authors might be conflating his work on action-at-a-distance in QM.

Einstein's GR extended the linear 'weak field' understanding of gravity to include the non-linear self-referential case where masses themselves create gravity. This was mathematically incredibly difficult but was necessary precisely because SR's mass energy equivalence created so many strong signals that were unresolved. For example: if finite energy is mass, then mass changes as objects accelerate past a large mass like a start, and hence their propagation in space could not be explained by linear EM style field equations. Many such considerations were causing very 'strong signals' in SR, and there were analogous problems in QM atomic models being developed at the same time.

SR was also a solution to a problem that was actively being worked by many of the leading physicists of the day. SR actually does match Newtonian mechanics for a single observer - it resolves contradictions in the case of separate observers, by allowing them to assign different values to the speeds, masses, etc of objects such that each object appears to follow Newtonian mechanics for each observer. Again, this was necessary because of a lot of contradictions related to the behavior of light that had been well-known for ~20 years at the time.

Personally, I don't consider this kind of reasoning to be beyond the capabilities of future LLMs (even current LLMs if the task was broken into technical rather than philosophical problems). Personally, I doubt that such problems could stand open for 20+ years waiting for a creative genius to solve them in the modern world.

And don't get me started on the philosophy.

saghm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It also seems kinda tone deaf. If someone basically told me I was wasting my time and asked what I would do in the future, I would not bother giving them a particularly thoughtful answer because trying to spend effort justifying my life choices to them would be the actual waste of time.

What kind of answers were they expecting to get?

paul7986 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

By trade I'm a UX Researcher/Designer who designs in code (HTML/CSS) and have done so since 2009. Recently I vibe coded an entire python app with a database and each time I didnt know what to do I would just feed screenshots to Gemini or Codex for guidance (i think i could share my screen with Codex and it can guide me via a voice conversation). I know I could follow up and build a companion iPhone and Android app using these tools.

Overall, I'd like to understand those who have a positive outlook on design and software engineering as a career. Where do you see the opportunity where I just see a bleak one where anyone can do this stuff by typing or talking to AI? Myself, after 17 years in the field I am begrudingly back in school for a new medical career. As well, anytime an IT recruiter reaches out I am getting responses back only after under-cutting the hourly rate I use to demand and what others probably are still trying to get. And with it feels even bleaker as it becomes a race to the bottom!

cjcenizal 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I also work in UX and SWE, and heavily use GenAI in my work. I don’t have a positive outlook for people who limit their career to one of those fields, but I do have a positive outlook for generalist, multi-disciplinary careers. When you have the experience and skill to steer product development from end-to-end, you can produce high-quality products super-quickly. The experience and skills are the differentiator — if you lack those you can still use GenAI to move fast but probably in the wrong direction.

aryehof 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The industry has vast (and increasing) oversupply of “programmers” versus diminishing demand. Add to this, the adoption of AI.

> Overall, I'd like to understand those who have a positive outlook on design and software engineering as a career.

I think until the market better achieves some equilibrium, there is no way general software programming (sorry “engineering”) should be considered as a career. That said, there will always be opportunities in particular markets or specialties.

griffiths 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In my experience, not everyone can really do this stuff by typing. I think you need to be creative, resourceful, inventive, open minded and have ideas how to approach the typing/prompting. I see many people struggle in using AI.

antonvs 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It reminds me of Richard Hamming’s notorious question. I like the summary at https://bestjelly.substack.com/p/hamming-questions (which starts out with a quote from another site):

> > Mathematician Richard Hamming used to ask scientists in other fields "What are the most important problems in your field?" partly so he could troll them by asking "Why aren't you working on them?" and partly because getting asked this question is really useful for focusing people's attention on what matters.

> I imagine someone being asked this question, and how they should respond. I think like so - ‘Fuck off Richard’.

> This is partly because I imagine this question being asked in a kind of snarky, gotcha kind of way, with some sort of nerdy superiority. Like ‘ha your behaviour is inconsistent with your implied preferences, you idiot, do you even von Neumann–Morgenstern?’

esafak 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Also, if you believe your well-paying job is eventually going to be automated you would be prudent to bank the money while you prepare for the future.