| ▲ | Zigbee vs. Matter over Thread:Understanding IoT Protocol Performance in Practice(arxiv.org) |
| 70 points by teleforce 7 hours ago | 52 comments |
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| ▲ | SEJeff 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I’m a bit surprised they didn’t add zwave into this comparison. |
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| ▲ | waste_monk 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd like to use z-wave but as an Australian we have different allowed frequency bands (specifically the USA-market gear uses frequencies that are reserved for telecom use over here, and anything that can interfere with the ability to call emergency services is Very Illegal), and thus the few devices that get built supporting the AU rf bands are overly expensive due to the (lack of) economy of scale. As a result my home automation stack is a mix of zigbee, Matter (over both Wifi and Thread), and just plain WiFi. All of which uses the 2.4Ghz (and 5Ghz but mostly 2.4 for the IoT stuff) ISM band(s) and is thus cheap and plentiful. Not sure how many other regions suffer the same issues, but I suspect that z-wave will be outcompeted by the more modern alternatives in the coming years. /rant | |
| ▲ | margalabargala an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They're probably only comparing open protocols. If one doesn't care if their protocol is proprietary then sure one might consider zwave. But it's hardly "surprising" that it's left out. | | |
| ▲ | brianaker 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The funny part is that people think that Zigbee and Matter are open :) All three of them have their shortcomings. Matter requires an unsecured IPv6 network to operate; I have my doubts about it having any longterm future. | |
| ▲ | SEJeff an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | What? The entire specification is in this git repo maintained by the home assistant team. Also, they’re on the zwave board now. It’s wholly open, but wasn’t maybe 4-5 years ago. https://github.com/zwave-js/specs |
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| ▲ | walrus01 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | yes, and also that if someone is buying stuff new, it should be exclusively zwave800 stuff. example hardware on the "hub" end would be: https://www.home-assistant.io/connect/zwa-2/ https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zst39-z-wave-long-range-usb-sti... the zooz is this internally: https://www.silabs.com/wireless/z-wave/800-series-modem-soc/... | | |
| ▲ | mrheosuper 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | another protocol/wireless stack? Why can't we settle down to something that is at least "good enough"? | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because zwave is proprietary. There's money to be made here! Can you imagine the lost profit potential if people standardize on an open protocol like ZigBee? | | |
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| ▲ | cryptoegorophy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you really need long antenna? I noticed zwave can act as a mesh. | | |
| ▲ | SuperMouse 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Most likely it's not a super robust transmission mode like LoRa (that works down to -145dBm). Having a well designed antenna with a good pattern help a lot then. |
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| ▲ | asveikau 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Doesn't zwave use a different frequency, and zigbee and thread are both 2.4ghz? Perhaps that makes it a more fair comparison? | | |
| ▲ | Tor3 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Zwave frequencies, as well as regulations, vary between countries/regions. This means that equipment isn't interchangeable, something I'm currently running into - I can't get a zwave electronic door lock for Japan while I could easily have bought one in my home country. But I wouldn't be able to bring it if I wanted to. Zigbee is basically the same everywhere, however the 2.4GHz band is of course somewhat congested. | |
| ▲ | SEJeff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, zwave is in the much less congested 900mhz range. It is a fair bit more reliable as it doesn’t compete with: - WiFi - Bluetooth - microwave ovens Additionally, it’s a bit more strict with certification so you can easily use multiple vendors for zwave whereas with zigbee it’s often a terrible experience since vendors implement things differently in ways that are not as interoperable. In fact, for a device to be certified by the zwave alliance, it must pass strict conformance testing to ensure backwards compatibility and interoperability. | | |
| ▲ | torginus 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is both good and bad, and no surprise its an American standard. Lower frequencies have higher range, which is good if you live in a house (because range), and bad if you live in an apartment (because interference and crowded channels). So it will compete with itself, and everything on the ISM band (which you have no control over). | |
| ▲ | parineum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | All it costs is significantly more money and less options. If you limit your pool of zigbee devices to just more reputable companies, you'll end up with around the same amount of options as zwave and they'll be reliable but significantly cheaper. You also have the option to find some super cheap stuff that works just fine. That usually requires some research but not much. You can also build ESPHome devices for zigbee but that's pretty niche, to say the least. Having previously been all zwave then moved and tried to go matter but ended up with zigbee, I wish I never listened to people saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, zwave doesn't know it's dead yet and Matter isn't going to fulfill it's promises because the corporate interests that wouldn't give you local control with zigbee aren't suddenly going to change their minds because it says matter now. | | |
| ▲ | wao0uuno an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | My entire “smart” home setup is built with Matter over Thread. It’s fully local. No internet access required. With Home Assistant onboarding can be done without a smartphone now. Devices without official certification work but probably only in Home Assistant. | | |
| ▲ | torginus 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Dunno, personally I have found HA + MoT to be strictly worse than Z2M. It's the classic case of the Douglas Adams quote: “The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." HA MoT has a simplified UI, that hides hellish complexity underneath, that's held together by loose pieces of gum, which means its difficult to troubleshoot. HA has a rather laissez faire policy to stability, for example, they rolled out an update just recently that made it impossible to add new devices. I just readded yday evening my Ikea temp sensors as they mysteriously stopped working for no reason. Why? Who knows, but you can't ship stuff like this to a non-technical audience, especially if they rely on it. I had it connected as the temp sensor of my AC, and was surprised to find the AC was not working, thats how I found out it suicided itself. | |
| ▲ | iamacyborg 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | My Matter over Thread stuff keeps occasionally falling over in Home Assistant and becoming unavailable, probably a router issue as I’m using a homepod mini but still endlessly frustrating. | | |
| ▲ | wao0uuno 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I’m using ZBT-2 with HAOS on RPi 4 4GB. It’s rock solid in a crowded apartment complex. Devices are 90% IKEA and 10% Aqara. Definitely try that antenna and don’t connect additional border routers. Let HA own everything. |
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| ▲ | BHSPitMonkey an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | But Matter _is_ locally-controlled. Matter-over-Thread is better as there's no side channels to abuse; Matter-over-Wifi also guarantees local control though the presence of Wifi means a high probability of some additional onboard software bloat the manufacturer can use to enshittify the product if you're not careful. |
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| ▲ | petre 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | On Europe the 860MHz band is subject to more restrictive transmission duty cycles, LBT or FHSS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-range_device#SRD860 In the US you also have the FCC reshaping the 900 MHz for industrial broadband and NextNav. So there will be more competition. https://www.nemko.com/blog/fcc-reshapes-the-900-mhz-band-for... https://www.landisgyr.com/br/pt/home/knowledge/blog/Navigati... |
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| ▲ | unsnap_biceps 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | some zigbee controllers even support being converted to thread via a firmware update | | |
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| ▲ | vdfs 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| These protocols add so much complications it makes wifi/tcp/ip a blaze They fix some problems but add more, you endup just like that xckd about protocols |
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| ▲ | torginus 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | A bit of clarification: Thread is a layer 2 protocol, for the user, it looks like standard IPv6. Matter is application level, and just expect standard TCP/IP underneath. There's nothing binding Matter to Thread, and in fact a lot of Matter devices use Wifi | |
| ▲ | Forge36 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Having switched to zigbee devices recently I regret trying to start with WiFi. While I'm not sure how it looks under the hood, adding devices with home assistant was miles easier. | | |
| ▲ | baby_souffle 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've helped lots of people with home automation Network build outs l; the biggest factor is the RF environment. If you're fortunate enough to not be battery constrained at most endpoints and can put a high quality Wi-Fi access point in an optimal location than Wi-Fi is incredibly reliable. The tooling for inspecting all layers of a Wi-Fi network is infinitely more accessible and mature and that certainly helps; I can't go to My local big box store and get a USB thread dongle for 20 bucks that will just work on a Lennox computer and integrate nicely with Wireshark out of the box... | | | |
| ▲ | Gigachad 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thread is fairly similar to Zigbee, just standardized and doesn't require brand specific hubs. You can actually control thread devices direct from an iphone with no hub at all. Wifi for anything but cameras is a mistake, it only exists for maximum compatibility since everyone has wifi already. | | |
| ▲ | esseph 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Wifi for cameras is arguably also a mistake | | |
| ▲ | nomel 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Cameras that require internet to connect to are a mistake, but cameras that use Wifi for local link are fine (wifi is perfect for this). And, having some way to connect remotely is a requirement, for most everyone. | | |
| ▲ | wao0uuno an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Security system that can be jammed is a terrible idea. Cameras should be wired. Ideally on separate network and with battery backup. | |
| ▲ | rob-olmos 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I took their point to be about wifi being jammable | | |
| ▲ | fragmede 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah first thing burglars are gonna do is jam your wifi camera so you don't have any video of them. Run cat-5 and get a PoE camera. | | |
| ▲ | kps 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | And be sure your outdoor cameras are on an isolated VLAN so people can't just plug in to your home network. |
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| ▲ | zer00eyz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Wifi for anything but cameras Buttons (key presses, remotes - think rapid input), Knobs, sliders, Pixel LED' strips, some MM wave sensors, ir/radio transmitters, really need wifi. There is products where you will want a bluetooth proxy, plenty of kitchen/grill thermometers and scales for kitchen and bathroom are great examples. Where range is an issue LoRa is a thing that has plenty of devices and is easy to DIY. | | |
| ▲ | unsnap_biceps 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | My matter over thread devices (inovelli) for light switches work faster and better then my old wifi devices (cync) |
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| ▲ | amarcheschi an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I studied zigbee protocol for an exam and while everything is there for a reason, it truly feels diabolical | |
| ▲ | deadmutex 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Some specifics would be a great addition to this comment. |
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| ▲ | jauntywundrkind 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| A lot of graphs where OpenThread & zigbee dance around each other, are within 2x of each other. Two huge notables to me: message throughput for openthreads scales up, zigbee seems to hit a wall early. Not sure when that matters but very clear. The last table was a fright through: it takes half a minute for OpenThreads to recover after a node drops where-as Zigbee a quarter second! Wow. |
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| ▲ | richwater 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is there a situation in which your smarthome taking 30s to recover from a node failure is impacting your life? Seems like a distinction without a difference | | |
| ▲ | denkmoon 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you have any smarthome stuff? Standing around waiting 30 seconds for your light to come on would be moronic. A complete regression over the electric switch invented in 1884. I'd rip everything out right then and there. Your home should be reliable, smart or no. | |
| ▲ | 4chandaily 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Standing outside with an armfull of groceries, and a door is now our of range of your hub temporarily due to the failed node. 30s can seem like quite a while standing in the rain. | | |
| ▲ | AlotOfReading 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not exactly a strong argument if you need like 5 qualifications to demonstrate the issue. If the right node fails, if it happens right as you walk up, if it's raining, if your porch is uncovered, if your door doesn't have an immediate fallback... I'm sure someone will be affected because of the law of large numbers, but it seems like an unlikely scenario to base a purchasing decision on. | | |
| ▲ | codeflo 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | A light switch not working for 30 seconds, or a door not opening for 30 seconds, even if only sporadically, is a significant loss of life quality, no qualifiers needed. |
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| ▲ | alexjurkiewicz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because IOT devices are cheap and networks are ad hoc, flaky connectivity is a likely occurrence. Thread must be reliable in these situations. |
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