| ▲ | glitchc 21 hours ago |
| Read the bio. Found it (emphasis mine): > While at Columbia, he co-founded the university's effective altruism (EA) chapter.[5] Just another smart, yet ethically challenged, individual. Nothing to see here. |
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| ▲ | skavi 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| why does involvement with EA imply being ethically challenged? i’m personally not involved, but on its face it seems better than not doing any kind of charitable work. |
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| ▲ | plorkyeran 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | EA has a few branches of thought. One of them is "I am going to donate $X to charity each year. How do I maximize the good this brings to the world?" This group is sometimes less effective than they'd like to think, but there's no moral problem with it. Another branch is "I make lots of money at a job that's probably making the world a worse place. How do I reframe this to not feel like a bad person?" They do some math and conclude that it's net more good for them to earn a bunch of money and donate some of it than it is to volunteer or it is to work at a job that isn't making the world a worse place. This is an awfully convenient conclusion as it means that all they have to do is pay a tithe and make no real changes to their life. The notion of making money specifically for the sake of funding good things isn't a completely terrible one, but a vocal portion of the people who espouse it are very obviously not primarily motivated by maximizing the good they do. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > why does involvement with EA imply being ethically challenged? Because almost everyone prominent in the movement has had some combination of lack of judgment and morals. There various terms for rationally pursuing philanthropy; associating with effective altruism involves embracing its ideas, people and culture. | | |
| ▲ | YetAnotherNick 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the central finding in EA is donating money while earning good is better than donating time directly for charity. To me it seems correct but controversial for many people(likely because you are maximizing your personal income) | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > the central finding in EA is donating money while earning good is better than donating time directly for charity EA has many tenets, some of make sense per se, but collectively–particulalry when taking into account that EA isn't just an idea but a movement of people with a distinct culture and track record–probably do more harm than good. | | |
| ▲ | YetAnotherNick 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | What doesn't make sense? I thought expected wealth optimization was the most controversial thing by far. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > What doesn't make sense? Well, for one, the frequency of its members committing mass fraud. Like, if a church preaches kindness and love but its preachers and members are constantly out there murdering people, it's a bit silly to point to the text alone when evaluating the organisation. | | |
| ▲ | yorwba 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | What do you think the frequency of EAs committing mass fraud is? How many cases are you basing that on? What does that imply about the size of the EA movement? Does that number make sense? Like, if a church had 100,000 members, you would indeed expect them to commit a few murders each year. And GiveWell alone claims to have induced 150,000 people to donate... https://www.givewell.org/default/citations#Number_of_donors |
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| ▲ | wbl 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And yet they do more good than the moral critics do. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > yet they do more good than the moral critics do Going to need a good source for that crowd having done more good than the frauds of even just their most-notorious members. Masquerading as an altruist to justify massive management fees for running a fund of concentrated, leveraged positions is one of the oldest lipsticks on financial pigs. | |
| ▲ | glitchc 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Moral critics save a lot of lives by not doing. Sometimes not doing is the best moral option ex. I will not kill or I will not exploit. And it does not come cheap. Someone who says "I will not work for Facebook" is taking a stand at the expense of significant personal gain. |
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| ▲ | 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | simianwords 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| How is he ethically challenged? This looks like an accusation that doesn't have merit |
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| ▲ | glitchc 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As per the article, he formed a trading company without any background in investing, and once his investments tanked, he sold the stocks for pennies on the dollar to a financial firm, leaving investors holding the bag while pocketing trading fees associated with a $45B USD portfolio. | | |
| ▲ | like_any_other 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How is effective altruism related? I skimmed their wiki page [1], but didn't find anything endorsing such actions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism | | |
| ▲ | kimixa 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, but to most people the only exposure they've had to the term "Effective Altruism" (if they've even heard of the it) is morality-washing personal greed that never quite seems to get past the "accumulation" or "self-serving boondoggle" stages. As a brand it's tainted. You might argue unfairly, but that's never mattered in "public brand perception" before. | |
| ▲ | glitchc 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sam Bankman-Fried is an effective altruist (or was anyways, not sure what he is after they denounced him). The list of effective altruists reads like a who's who of scummy people. https://www.wired.com/story/deaths-of-effective-altruism/ | | |
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| ▲ | simianwords 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | bad ethics is when you run a company in free market transparently and don't have a monotonically increasing revenue? |
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| ▲ | jandrese 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Effective Altruism is one of those things that sounds smart on the surface, but in practice is a yellow flag. The fact that he started the club is a red flag. In short, Effective Altruism says you don't engage in charity until you have sufficient means to actually make a difference. Basically, you leverage capitalism to accumulate enough wealth to actually be able to solve a big problem, then you go all in on solving that problem. Sounds great right? In the real world these people never accumulate enough wealth to actually start solving problems. Even when they become billionaires. In practice it is a convenient excuse to act like the most depraved capitalist while still pretending to sit on the high horse and talk down to people who simply try to help with the means available to them. | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I have a lot of problems with Aschenbrenner and the "Rationalist" community as a whole, but this is not a factually correct characterization of Effective Altruism. | |
| ▲ | pingou 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Giving What We Can" pledge is to give 10% of your income to charity. | |
| ▲ | skavi 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | can you support those claims? | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s the “tractability” part of the ITN framework: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/topics/itn-framework In practice, it can be used as a fully-general counterargument to supporting most charities, since decisively and completely solving problems in this space is rare. It’s harder to split a problem into component parts than it is to throw up one’s hands and say, “well, this isn’t tractable.” | | |
| ▲ | yorwba 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | "tractability = % of a problem solved / % increase in resources" does not sound like "you have to decisively and completely solve a problem or it's not worth supporting." You can only throw up your hands and say "this isn't tractable" if tractability is 0, i.e. the charity doesn't help at all, no matter how much money you spend on it. | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m describing about how the term is used by EA folks, which may not match its formal definition. (“In practice, it can be used as. . .”) > You can only throw up your hands and say "this isn't tractable" if tractability is 0, i.e. the charity doesn't help at all, no matter how much money you spend on it. Even I don’t believe this. You’ve gone too far in the other direction and made tractability a useless metric. | | |
| ▲ | yorwba 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | If tractability could only be used to filter out literally intractable charities, it would indeed not be very useful. But you can also use it to compare different approaches and pick the best ones. Then you don't throw up your hands and say "this isn't tractable" but you throw up your hands and say "why are you wasting money on this when a much more tractable approach exists." |
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| ▲ | jandrese 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | One has to only look at the actual participants to find ample examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQZWMmINqxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S54GrXDjokg https://www.thephilosopher1923.org/post/a-mirror-for-tech-br... https://www.persuasion.community/p/the-problem-with-effectiv... |
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| ▲ | 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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