| ▲ | avalys 3 hours ago |
| Who produces the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the house you live in, the energy you use, the medicine you consume, etc. while you airily define ‘productivity’ as reading the classics and spending time with friends? |
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| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| We have enough excess in society that we can spare enough of those things to those who are unable to take care of themselves. |
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| ▲ | theflyingelvis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It almost seems as if you are trolling. Surely we can, at least, agree that the excesses you mention exist only because of those who produce. | | |
| ▲ | bestouff 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A society where just stating this is called trolling is such a sad society. I pity you and you brainwashed siblings. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | it's a very common trolling tactic to imply a controversial thing while overtly saying a less controversial thing |
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| ▲ | daishi55 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They are not trolling. They are stating the simple, undeniable fact that there is more than enough to go around and if we had a more equitable distribution of resources, we could take care of everyone with disabilities 10x over with plenty to spare. | | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > we could take care of everyone with disabilities 10x over with plenty to spare. Yes, like the 40%[1] of Stanford undergrads who have disabilities. The greatest long term impediment to what you're suggesting is folks who don't need the help taking advantage of the resource distribution. It both massively increases the costs and sours those who have to pay into the system on the whole thing leading to a backlash. If we could just solve this quirk of human nature, we'd be all set. [1] https://fortune.com/article/rise-in-elite-students-seeking-a... |
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| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Have I said anything to the contrary? | |
| ▲ | throwaway173738 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You’re missing the point of the article and of the post. Why do you assume that someone who reads and takes breaks is unproductive? Should we get a second job instead? I spend 8 hours sleeping. Would you like me to work those hours as well? I spend some of my day cooking and cleaning and raising my son. Would you rather I keep working instead? Maybe it’s time that we worked together to gain that time back for you instead of you fighting for us to lose our free time. |
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| ▲ | kakacik 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don't expect much sympathy here, as per many comments folks are mostly on purely capitalistic camps to the extreme. Its distillation of US approach to work and society, something I've grown to detest by mere fact of living in much more humane, while vastly more financially efficient system that doesn't use my tax money to kill civilians all over the world (none other than Swiss system and yes it could easily work elsewhere if people reduced their egos significantly, which they won't). Its everybody for themselves in US, fuck the rest, the more the better. Some 'society' it is. The more miserable and poor others are, the better you can exploit them right. How horrible the world would be if those folks stocking shelves in shops or trimming your hair would also have a shot for a decent life. Middle class is for mediocre suckers, either your are a star (at least from financial perspective, usually the rest of life is very opposite of it) or a loser. Can't say I can respect that system, but as long as I am not part of it nor bombed by its military industrial complex to death I simply don't care. Folks can stay and be part of that system or leave, that part of freedom is still sorta there. | | |
| ▲ | lostmsu 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Switzerland got its wealth predominantly by shielding money stolen from around the entire world. I'm glad US ended that carnival of happiness to a large degree in 2009. | | |
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| ▲ | reactordev 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you know how tone deaf this is? Some people literally can’t afford their medication and you are saying “meh, we have too much already” | | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | We have enough medication. People not being able to afford it has little to do with whether or not we have (or could easily make) an excess. Insulin costs ~3 USD to make per vial. People not being able to afford ~30 USD insulin is not because we have too little medication. It's because there are leeches all over the healthcare system. And if you genuinely cannot afford it, you should get it for free, as part of a proper healthcare system, which the US famously lacks. |
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| ▲ | pj_mukh 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “We have enough excess in society” How are you measuring this? Hopefully something better than stock prices. | | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The other commentor mentioned food and clothes to you. I'll add that I can get food for free locally (soup kitchen style, although I don't think they actually serve soup) if I really need it. Around 10% of houses in the US are vacant, although I'm sure a fair amount are that for good reasons (shitty locations, old and worn to high hell). This to me sounds like a resource allocation problem and not a lack-of-resources problem. Energy could be free close to free if we made the right choices. The sun's right there. Unfortunately, we've been stuck in a political rut for a long while, making long term projects like 'do something about global warming' and 'transition away from fossil fuels' uninteresting. Many medicines are only expensive due to patents and making up for research costs. Actual production is usually cheap as hell. I don't have all the answers. People smarter than me might have them. But I do know that we can do better. | | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes to all of this, and want to double stress the Housing theory of everything [1]. Most of the "scarcity" people feel today in the North American context is driven by housing. And there simply isn't enough of it. And citing badly measured vacancy stats does a huge disservice to the effort to fix this. I agree we can do a lot better. And I have no moral qualms about giving the excess away to everyone who needs it. But I need people to admit that it will require a lot of work till we can sufficiently claim we have a real realizable "excess". And that work requires the current system to work more "efficiently" and with "higher productivity", in the economic definition of the word, not as a personal valuation as OP defines. [1]: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every... | | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Housing is clearly the biggest problem, yes, and I doubt you'll find anyone who'll disagree that it's not a big problem. But it's a big problem for political reasons. If we all woke up tomorrow and thought 'we need 10 million new homes', I'm sure it could happen. It's just not in the short-term (and long-term?) interests of the economy as it is now. Maybe we should do something about that? Or maybe, just maybe, we should do it because it's a thing that raises people's quality of life? I only care about the economy insofar as it helps actual people on the ground, so I'll be happy to ignore it for things like this, assuming that doesn't put us in an even worse rut than we are in now. | | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >If we all woke up tomorrow and thought 'we need 10 million new homes The cost (no profit) of 1 Million homes where people want to live (where your community is), would be roughly 0.5 Trillion to 1 Trillion USD [1]. So, I don't think this is true :(. We simply don't have the construction workers and the supply-chains to make it happen. Again, these are fixable problems and I want this to be true. But it is not today. [1]: https://medium.com/@dtxtransitposts/how-much-does-it-actuall... | | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The cost (no profit) of 1 Million homes where people want to live (where your community is), would be roughly 0.5 Trillion to 1 Trillion USD [1]. That sounds worth it to me. > We simply don't have the construction workers and the supply-chains to make it happen. Again, these are fixable problems and I want this to be true. But it is not today. Sounds like something we need to fix then. | |
| ▲ | inigyou 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What if we let people build their own homes and gave them courses on how to do that? Also 1 trillion dollars sounds like a single year of national debt interest, the total amount spent and destroyed by the Iran war, or the Pentagon's black budget. I'm sure we can give up one of those for a year to fix every economic problem plaguing the country. |
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| ▲ | butlike 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | By the fact medicine has an expiration date on the bottle. You can have so much of it you don't have the chance to use it all before it expires. | |
| ▲ | pharrington 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US, it can be measured by the overstocked food that gets discarded everyday, and by the houses that are vacant nine months a year. | | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just a note those "vacancies" include dilapidated buildings and housing that is between leases (literally all the housing on craigslist is included in that number). Vacancies in most major cities is near-zero. As a market-rate renter, when someone says "we have so much excess", I have no idea what you're talking about. | |
| ▲ | Zababa 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This assumes production of food is the bottleneck rather than distribution. If distribution is actually the bottleneck, overstocked food is not a measure of excess in society. | | |
| ▲ | AnimalMuppet 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | But individual grocery stores throw out a lot of food each day. So the problem isn't distribution, it's that nobody bought it. |
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| ▲ | XorNot 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The world produces so much excess food we pay farmers not to grow it and fast fashion brands burn unsold merchandise in the desert. | | |
| ▲ | anovikov 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | ...and the food part, it's been this way for almost a hundred years now - with agricultural productivity skyrocketing in between. But 100 years ago, chronic food overproduction bankrupting farmers, was already a persistent problem. Since then, lots of bright minds spent their lifetimes to invent new ways to bribe or coerce farmers into growing as little as possible for their own safety. |
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| ▲ | GeoAtreides 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| At least for food, we went from 80% 500 years ago to about 1-5% now. Maybe less, soon, when fruit picking robots come online. Work is not destiny. |
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| ▲ | astral_drama 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Who produces the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the house you live in, the energy you use, the medicine you consume, etc. The able do. The disabled would love to work hard and earn a nice paycheck. It's a privilege to be able to work and be in good health. Hopefully you don't have to learn that the hard way. |
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| ▲ | avalys 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | A privilege, really? Who bestows that privilege? I am certainly sympathetic to people who are genuinely disabled. That doesn’t mean we have to lie to ourselves that they are being productive by sitting around reading books. | | |
| ▲ | astral_drama an hour ago | parent [-] | | > A privilege, really? Who bestows that privilege? You do > I am certainly sympathetic to people who are genuinely disabled. Agreed, and it can be uncomfortable to sort through what's genuine or not. One of my favorite scenes is in the big Lebowski where Walter confronts the other Lebowski claiming he's not a cripple and lifts him out of his wheelchair...Funny and sad all at once. > That doesn’t mean we have to lie to ourselves that they are being productive by sitting around reading books. Not asking for anyone to lie to themselves about what they feel is productive, rather giving another perspective to hopefully help people appreciate being able to work. |
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| ▲ | RobinL an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| By that logic someone working in a care home is worth less than someone building a gambling app. There's little relationship between salary and what people deserve, it's mostly just luck to have skills that happen to be in short supply. |
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| ▲ | Suzuran 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Does it matter? In the US, we send a sizable portion of our paychecks to the government's Social Security program so it can provide for us in this exact scenario. The government dictated the terms and we upheld our end of the contract on pain of incarceration. Now it's time for the government to uphold their end. |
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| ▲ | chneu 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Technically, SS provides for the next generation. We pay into it to the next generation can use that, not the current one. It's a pyramid scheme meant to pay out early and then die. The math doesn't work if the individual expects to retire on it. It's a great scam. | | |
| ▲ | Suzuran 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's not my problem if the math doesn't work, or if my money doesn't pay for me. The contract as presented to me by the government is "You will pay into this system, it provides Social Security to the aged and disabled. If you do not pay into this system, you will be judged guilty of a criminal offense and sentenced accordingly." The specifics of who pays and for what are the government's problem, not mine. Whether or not the government is guilty of fraud or misrepresentation does not affect the terms. I fail to see why I should consider the government free of the obligations they themselves have mandated. |
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| ▲ | bjertoref an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Stephen Hawking wouldn't exist in our society if we didn't care for people like him. |
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| ▲ | jplrssn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Who produces the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the house you live in, the energy you use, the medicine you consume, etc You could say the same thing about software engineers. But someone spending their days just creating JS frameworks is oh-so-productive and paid enough money every month to buy several years’ worth of food and shelter. |
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| ▲ | avalys 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If they are JS frameworks that enable other engineers to build applications that support farms, and banks, and taxi services and insurance companies and mines and factories, etc. then obviously that is productive. If someone is willingly paying money for their labor then I see little point in questioning the worth of that exchange. When JS engineers start asking for public money to support them writing JS frameworks that no one wants to pay for, we can revisit this topic. | | |
| ▲ | jplrssn 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | My point is that, unless you think that the purpose of human existence is to maximise insurance profitability and mining throughput, lifetime earnings potential is not a good proxy for someone’s value to society. I think it is sad that many of the people that have the largest positive impact on society — teachers, care assistants and the like — are also some of worst paid. |
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| ▲ | gus_massa 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When I was young, to buy a tee shirts for the kids you have to walk like 10 block to visit like 5 shops and compare prices. Let's say 1 or 2 hour and the choices were quite limited and you must keep a mental list of the location and quality of each shop. [The cheap ones may open only at the same time you have to be in the office.] Now you can go to Mercado Libre (the local version of Amazon) compare prices and see the reviews and buy them in 15 minutes. There are a lot of more choices and the prices are lower (or higher if you like fancy stuff). It arrives home at the afternoon. Some software engineer has to program it. Does s/he deserve a few bucks for the time s/he saved all of us? | |
| ▲ | ajsnigrutin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, if someone is willing to pay them, why not? Even hundreds and thousands of years ago, people would put semi transparent rocks onto shiny metal shapes and sell those useless gadgets for a lot of money. If customers are willing to pay for that, it means that those people made something worth that money. |
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| ▲ | alexgieg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Billionaires, evidently. Why else would they deserve a million times what you make in your entire lifetime, weren't for the fact they're a million times more productive than you? In fact, if one were to die tomorrow that'd be like the loss to the world of a million of you, whereas were you to do the same, that'd be a loss of only one of you. This is also why you can be downsized without that impacting anything important, while downsizing a single billionaire would be a global tragedy. Or at least, that's the logical consequence of that line of reasoning. If that's incorrect, where's the error in the reasoning? |
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| ▲ | smallmancontrov 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People who the current system fully agrees should be paid like dirt while others party, that's who. |
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| ▲ | freehorse 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is the majority of jobs that are related to this space and most people do here productive, by this definition? I would say it is destructive even. At least what OP says produces no harm at worst. |
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| ▲ | germinalphrase 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Increasingly, the answer is a “what”, not a “who”. |
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| ▲ | ajsnigrutin 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This has been happening for more than a hundred years now... 90%+ of the people have been farming not that long ago, and mechanized farming equipment has replaced 95%+ of those workers. This doesn't mean 4 hour workweeks or majority of people not needing to work, but it means that some of you can be social media managers, others can integrate AI chatbots in apps that don't need an AI chatbot, some can rewrite existing software in whatever the language of the week is, etc. Without offloading all that farming to machines, we'd never have what we now consider for "normal" and "must have". Those few farmers left (2-3% of the workforce, depeding on the country) want to earn money too, so they can buy smartphones, watch netflix and have that smart toilet seats that open automatically and wash your butthole. If all those replaced-by-machines workers don't produce all that, where's the point in farming food for them? | | |
| ▲ | germinalphrase 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Let’s assume that all human labor goes through the same transition as agriculture: within a single human lifetime, 98% of all the human work is replaced by highly efficient machines and a small minority of highly productive people. If only 2% of the population have the required skills/talents/ownership to remain productive, on what basis does the remaining 98% participate in the economy? The answer has always been: people will invent new ways to be economically productive, but if the agriculture ladder of labor generalizes across the economy - what is left for the average, unexceptional, run-of-the-mill man on the street? |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many places around the world, we work for what is needed, not for hitting it big. But since you ask, also many victims of late stage capitalism explored in modern forms of slavery without work rights, so that richer nations can enjoy cheap electronics and clothing. |
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| ▲ | ahoka 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What a tone deaf comment. |
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| ▲ | neom 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [dead] |
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| ▲ | beanjuiceII 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | CursedSilicon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This smells a lot of "I'm miserable so everyone else must be as unhappy as I am" What if we make a better world for everyone, instead of a planetary crab bucket? | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've considered suicide because I was unable to make ends meet. I don't want others to experience that. Is that too much to ask? | | |
| ▲ | a-french-anon 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Of course nobody sane wants something like this to happen. The problem isn't the people unable to make ends meets, it's the unwilling. | | |
| ▲ | Telaneo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most people want to work. Most people want to provide value in some form. The author of the article is unable and willing, but is still treated as unwilling by the system. We're better of acting in good faith and treating everybody who says they are unable as that, and give them the support they need. | |
| ▲ | inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How can you even tell the difference? Most people can't. They just assign everyone to the bucket of unwilling. | | |
| ▲ | a-french-anon 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | (Reasonable) Good faith at the individual level is a good thing, but when trying to scale it and build a working socialist system out of it, you're 100% set for failure. |
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| ▲ | CalRobert 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sometimes they are forbidden from making the things they’d like for themselves. You used to be able to get your own food, build your own home, etc. But enclosure put a stop to that. And besides, who made the land you live on? |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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