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meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago

Survival needs work, and being unable to work means outsourcing your survival to somebody else. This will always take a toll to your psychology irrespective of the economic system, unless you are psychopath who believes that you are entitled to other people's labour just by virtue of having a heartbeat. We used to rely on family so that the guilt of that is lessened somewhat, but modern societies are actually hostile to this mode of operation and tell you that you have to rely on the state instead.

Moreover, actions have consequences. Instead of traveling and having fun when you are able bodied, you can work more, save and invest your money for the future and safe-guarding against situations like these. Other people have chosen to do that. In the end of the day, all that outcry about capitalism is the classic "I made the wrong decisions and I want society to bail me out of them".

b3lvedere 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Tell me how someone born disabled made the wrong decision?

After that, tell me how someone who became disabled after an accident which they themselves did not cause, made the wrong decision?

Thirdly, tell me how someone who lived perfectly healthy just happend to have some blood clot shot into their brain suddenly, made the wrong decision?

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The wrong decision is not being insured for disaster and not saving enough when you were able to work, electing to spend the money instead. Not being unlucky with your health or having an accident. That's clearly stated in my original response if you care to read and not knee-jekingly respond.

For someone who has been born disabled, the conversation should be moved to the people who brought them to life and are responsible for their survival.

iammjm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Look at all those people worldwide “electing” to spend their money to feed and shelter themselves and their families with barely anything else left afterwards. The should’ve elected otherwise! It’s insane how some people here are disconnected from the realities of the majority of people worldwide. All those years of education and the infinite access to information and still it’s an enigma to them the fact that the majority of people worldwide are just shit out of luck for having been born in places where a full time job just barely gets you by.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You can speak for yourself, because you know nothing about my background and your ideological bias leads you to embarrassing assumptions.

My family until my parents generation were dirt poor in one of those countries you would also call piss poor.

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent [-]

So you got lucky, thought it was because you were a genius and now you think everyone who didn't get lucky is just stupid.

A common thinking pattern. To prove it's luck, though, your great-grandchildren will be poor again - that always happens - they say rags to rags in three generations.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I am not poor but I am not rich either, why do you make assumptions?

inigyou 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, I misread. Your parents were the first generation to escape poverty. They are the ones who worked hard and got lucky. You are the second generation, the one who grew up middle-class and takes it for granted, and wouldn't be able to climb up out of poverty. Your children will be the ones you spend all the money on and won't have any inheritance left for, and their children will grow up poor. This happens every single time.

"My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel."

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When your insurance denies your claim, does that mean being insured was the wrong decision too?

Which wrong decision did the parents of a disabled person make? Not getting prenatal genetic testing and an illegal abortion?

b3lvedere 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Almost everything in this universe wants you dead, including the species you belong to yourself, including the oxygen you so desperately need. The sooner you realise that the living time you have left is a careful balance of sheer luck and some preparations (money, food, shelter, love, the whole Maslov pyramid) the sooner you realise a standard job or labor is just a tool.

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The universe doesn't "want" you dead. It just happens that life is always on a precipice, a little bubble carved out from an endless sea of unlife. But when you live underwater in an air dome, the sea doesn't "want" to flood your dome - that implies malice. The sea will flood your dome if you aren't careful, but you can maintain this air pocket as long as you want.

Sadly (arguably this is the greatest possible sadness) biology doesn't work that way. I think at our current rate of advancement we'll have practical immortality within the next 500 years, which is far too late for any of us alive right now, but it's not like a 90-year lifespan is an irreducible fact of reality. We've already found several genes that control certain aspects of aging and death. Interestingly, it seems to have evolved on purpose, and there are other animal species with indefinite lifespans.

b3lvedere 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I totally agree that it does not 'want' anything. It just is. My apologies for that.

jckahn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> For someone who has been born disabled, the conversation should be moved to the people who brought them to life and are responsible for their survival.

Please explain exactly what you are suggesting or advocating for here.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean that the people who brought the person to life are responsible to make choice that will ensure theirs long term survival.

e.g my grandmother had a brother who their brain stopped developing at a very young age (afaik 5), the parents ensured and my grandmother ensured that my uncle lived a full (but sadly difficult) life living and been taken care of by them and then my grandma after they passed.

throwaway173738 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Have you ever asked them what it was like to financially support him like that? Do you actually want the world to work that way?

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So what does that actually mean in reality?

paulryanrogers 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Individuals cannot afford to insure themselves in a vacuum. That's why social safety nets were created as a sort of forced and collective insurance. It's cheaper for all of us to ensure no one starves or becomes permanently homeless regardless of their choices.

esseph 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Everyone that doesn't die early will become disabled, that includes you. You just hope it happens after you've made some money, but maybe between now and then you end up with a cancer or two.

b3lvedere 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yup.

My best friend married the love of his life. Had amazing kids and a nice job. Then he got cancer.

He had amazing insurance, a very supporting family, a job at a company who totally understood his situation. Everything was taken care of. The only thing left was hopefully getting better.

Which he did not. All that was left was pain. I literally watched him die. I heard his last breath. I saw the life leave his eyes.

That was it. His book of life will never have any more pages. It's done. The only thing left is to remember him.

flr03 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, in my vision on society, I'd happily work to help the survival of somebody else, next.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

We don't care about your personal preferences to make policy though.

flr03 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes in democracy we do

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No, making policy out of your personal preferences is a dictatorship. Making policy by taking a representative majority of preferences is a democracy.

throwaway173738 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, democracy is just rule by the people. It says nothing about requiring proportional representation or about how disagreements are arbitrated. In ancient Athens you weren’t elected, you were randomly appointed by sortition into a council. Voting for representation is a fairly new concept, and so is direct democracy. Democracy is more about everyone having input that is accepted. What you’re proposing is tyranny by the majority.

drcongo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody makes police.

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting how this is always post-hoc justified. It's always "you made bad decisions in the past so now you deserve cruelty". It's rarely "you are making a bad decision right now so you should stop that before you deserve cruelty in the future".

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> "you made bad decisions in the past so now you deserve cruelty"

Somebody will have to endure cruelty when someone makes bad decisions. The question is whether the cruelty will be received by the person making the bad decision or somebody else.

> It's rarely "you are making a bad decision right now so you should stop that before you deserve cruelty in the future".

So it's the economic system's fault that you weren't stopped before making a bad decision? It's the economic system's fault that schools teach gender theory instead of personal finance, economics and rational decision making?

sjsdaiuasgdia 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It's the economic system's fault that schools teach gender theory instead of personal finance, economics and rational decision making?

It's convenient when someone labels themselves as a propaganda poisoned shithead so thoroughly.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Ad-hominem is what you resort to when having no argument ;)

sjsdaiuasgdia 3 hours ago | parent [-]

"They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words."

Sartre didn't respect your kind and I don't either.

lostmsu an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds like Sartre didn't respect your kind, or am I misreading it? He is the one using the words responsibly and you are the one who made a frivolous remark.

Sounds like you also don't respect your own kind.

sjsdaiuasgdia an hour ago | parent [-]

Do you have specific evidence of an educational institution that added "gender studies" and concurrently removed "personal finance, economics, and rational decision making?"

Because that's what meta_gunslinger claimed while you say he was using words "responsibly".

Who do you think "my own kind" are, anyhow?

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sartre was a nihilistc pdf-file and a prolific liar. I don't have any respect for his ilk either.

sjsdaiuasgdia 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What was that about ad hominems again? ;-)

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

wtf are you talking about

stonyrubbish 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am 23 years old. I studied hard, went to college, got good grades, etc-- "did everything right," as far as older people in my life told me. At 19 I became disabled from a sudden rare condition such that I am now very ill and mostly housebound. I thought exactly as you did before becoming disabled. Everyone thinks sudden, rare, lightning-strike style things just happen to others until one day they happen to you.

I don't agree with railing against capitalism either-- it's not clear to me that there's any other system I would do better in, given my disability-- but the idea of, "if you do everything right, nothing bad will happen to you" is basically a comforting lie people tell themselves to feel safe. I believe in the value of hard work, and I am trying my best to better my situation-- switching my entire career from humanities to IT-- but I still am not fully sure how I am going to be able to support myself, and I don't think that's my fault.

seanclayton 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I don't agree with railing against capitalism either

I say we should all give it a shot. Capitalism has had its time to prove its value and its report card has left too many wanting. I think now is a good as time as any to re-evaluate alternatives to capitalism and its overwhelming role within our societies.

When a machine breaks, the best engineers find out what's wrong and fix it, no matter how many political feelings it hurts and what theories are shattered along the way. Chernobyl is a great show, btw.

flkiwi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "I made the wrong decisions and I want society to bail me out of them".

The irony of you using this in a negative sense when capitalism has profited mightily from exactly this dynamic is not lost on me, in that insurance companies are insanely profitable things. And that's without getting into what b3lvedere notes in the other comment about disability and the absolute, fundamental dependency capitalism has on socialized risk, e.g., limited liability as a corporate model, bankruptcy protection, even the dependence on national military and economic strength to create the conditions for private profit. Note that I'm not even dinging capitalism here. Not at all. It's just that capitalism wouldn't work without whole social risk networks to create the conditions for private profit.

thaumiel 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I disagree.

People are born with disabilities, which doesn't always show it's face until it is too late.

There are people who are completely incapable of saving and investing, because for them the "future" does not have any meaning in it self.

What is the point of investing if money by it self does not have any value?

There are also people who are born who will never be able to work a "normal" 9-5 job.

To put everything on their shoulders is what is wrong with the system.

Capitalism bears a heavy burden for causing a lot of angst.

throwaway173738 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Nobody should be a victim of the circumstances of their life.

ModernMech 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> In the end of the day, all that outcry about capitalism is the classic "I made the wrong decisions and I want society to bail me out of them".

What's the point of society if not being a buffer for bad individual decisions? If I can't count on y'all when I'm down, why should I help y'all when I'm up?

esseph 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Moreover, actions have consequences. Instead of traveling and having fun when you are able bodied, you can work more, save and invest your money for the future and safe-guarding against situations like these. Other people have chosen to do that. In the end of the day, all that outcry about capitalism is the classic "I made the wrong decisions and I want society to bail me out of them".

People don't choose to be born blind, or with a deformed limb, or with a genetic blood disease.

What fucking choice were they ever given?

It's always somebody that got lucky that wasn't born with a disability that makes these statements.

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> instead of traveling and having fun when you are able bodied

Are you having trouble with reading comprehension? Jesus.

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why would you wait to travel and have fun until you are no longer able-bodied? If we go for QALYs as people with this ideology usually do, isn't it better to front-load your high-quality years so you'll at least have the memories for longer?

meta_gunslinger 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah and then when something bad happens to you, have no money and be a burden to society! Extremely responsible.

inigyou 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Very much better than having something bad happen to you, having no money and being a burden to society, while never having experienced joy.

You're treating it as if it goes on forever, but in reality, the end of your life is going to suck no matter what you do, and the beginning is set by your parents, but you get to control the middle, from about 20 to 60 years old if you're doing averagely well. Don't make the mistake of saving up everything until you are 50, and then realizing it's too late to enjoy it!

Recently I was at Fusion Festival, which was cool. Do you think I should have saved the $500 and then gone to the festival (if it's still around) in 40 years at the age of 75?

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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