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| ▲ | WarmWash 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Agree, China believes in Climate change and are at least taking steps to address it. China brought 80GW of new coal power online last year. The US added 0, and plans to add 3GW next year (we all know why). China doesn't care about climate change, they care about energy independence, and conveniently have very little natural fossil fuels besides coal. Which they heavily mine and utilize. | | |
| ▲ | speedstyle 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | They commissioned 78 GW of new capacity in 2025, but actual coal-fired generation fell slightly (by 90 TWh, ie 10 GW). It might rise again, but it's expected to peak by 2027–28. And of course they added 440 GW of renewable capacity, 64% of global installations. I certainly agree there's other motives (renewables even net them significant trade, like EVs) but it's not as though 'caring about' climate impacts requires selfless virtue, they stand to lose $trillions/year like everyone else. |
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| ▲ | petcat 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | USA and Europe are basically equal in terms of yearly production of renewable energy. Texas + California alone rank 6th in the world. | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China emits 3x more co2 than the US and last year their rate of increase was 2.5x that of the US. https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by... | | |
| ▲ | ralferoo 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "big number bad" isn't a great way of analysing the data, because China has a massively larger population. The US emits 49% more CO2 per capita than China. And even with the much larger rate of increase, 0.79% to US' 0.3%, it'll still require 81 years to catch up to the US per capita rate [0]. The US aren't the good guys here, not by any means. Compared to my country, for instance, the US' emissions are 3x per capita that of the UK. If you want to argue that we shouldn't be using per capita (although we absolutely should), then that's 45x the UK's CO2 emissions. [0] log(13.59/9.13) / log(1.0049) = 81.4 years | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In absolute numbers China produces 1/3 of the total worlds CO2, and they are still growing the amount of CO2 they are producing. That is not the actions of a country who “believes in climate change”. China’s CO2 per capita is ahead of every large developed country except for the US, Australia, and Russia. | | |
| ▲ | Zigurd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Actually, if you Google the rankings, China is 27th per capita, behind, of all places, Iceland. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > ahead of every large developed country Because those are the only ones that can move the needle on climate change. | | |
| ▲ | Zigurd an hour ago | parent [-] | | You didn't bother to do the search and find out how many industrialized nations are also higher emitters per capita. |
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| ▲ | desterothx 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Almost like the entire worlds manufacturing was pushed to China the last 40 years (and is now getting moved to cheaper countries with the rising Chinese middle class). Is there a similar explanation for why the US number is so high? | | |
| ▲ | myrmidon 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Outsourced manufacturing is much less of a factor than people typically assume: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/imported-or-exported-co-e... US numbers are insanely high because cheap hydrocarbons are locally available (=> bad incentives) and everyone is wealthy (that correlation is very strong; just compare Luxembourg, which is much wealthier and more polluting than surrounding nations) and also population density is rather low so more energy wasted for transport. | | |
| ▲ | flakeoil 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > that correlation is very strong; just compare Luxembourg, which is much wealthier and more polluting than surrounding nations Well, your theory does not hold at all if you look at Switzerland which pollutes 1/4 of the US per capita. CO2 pollution is not and does not have to be correlated with standard of living. | | |
| ▲ | myrmidon 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The reality is obviously more complex, and many countries have already managed to somewhat decouple economic growth from CO2 emissions (very good!), but as a crude approximation: More money => everyone gets more stuff => more CO2 emissions (producing and running that stuff). If you want meaningful CO2/capita comparisons, you also have to be very careful with countries that get ("free") hydro power opportunities for electricity because that distorts the picture massively (same for e.g. Norway). Big producers of hydrocarbons, on the other hand (like the US) have to work hard to resist the allure of cheap & convenient fossils. Switzerland is so far ahead in this comparison because they get a lot of CO2-free hydroelectricity (>50%), have to import most hydrocarbons (=> incentive against) and also save massively on transportation because density is much higher. | | |
| ▲ | gwerbin an hour ago | parent [-] | | How much of that "decoupling" is actually just "exporting"? Not being glib or dismissive, I think it's an important distinction and I don't know enough about Europe to know how the two compare. | | |
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| ▲ | gwerbin an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are so many bad incentives all over the place in the USA, and it's not so much that cheap hydrocarbons create them as it fails to prevent them. Consider the gradual takeover of SUVs on the roads (many which to be fair are probably about as efficient as sedans were 20 years ago, albeit more expensive in real terms and significantly more dangerous for pedestrians), or the heavy reliance on trucking rather than rail for heavy freight transportation between logistics hubs, or the heavy reliance on air for long-distance travel due to having literally zero high-speed rail, or the fear of nuclear power, or the overt political opposition to green energy. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech an hour ago | parent [-] | | The rest of that is true but the US moves a much higher percentage of its freight by rail than almost any large developed country. Just in comparison to Europe “46 percent of European freight goes by truck while only 11 percent goes by rail, while in the United States more than 40 percent goes by rail while just 30 percent goes on the highway." This is in ton-miles, so it’s the metric most directly relevant to emissions. | | |
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| ▲ | ralferoo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You seem to think China is the evil polluter here. Just sort by per capita, and you'll see it's not even in the top 10% most polluting per capita. There are plenty of large (depending on your definition of large) countries above it. Not just US, Australia and Russia that you are excluding for some reason, but also Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Canada all have significantly developed economically important countries. And they all have GDP per capita much greater than China's. What's your rationale for excluding them? There's a whole host of smaller countries with higher GDP per capita than China between those I listed above and China on the CO2 per capita results. We should agree that ALL countries should be working to reduce CO2 emissions. But it sounds like you have a strong US bias and given Trump not only denies that climate change is even a thing, has withdrawn from international agreements on reducing emissions and even tries to pressure other countries to burn oil instead of investing in windfarms, it seems a bit disingenuous to try to make out that China is the only country that needs to improve. Before commenting on the speck in someone else's eye, first remove the plank from your own, yadda yadda... | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There are plenty of large (depending on your definition of large) countries above it. Not just US, Australia and Russia that you are excluding for some reason, but also Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Canada None of those countries have more than 50 million people. Most of them have fewer than 10 million. None of them are going to move the needle on climate change. The US is clearly not a country to emulate when it comes to co2 emissions. I don’t think China is any more “evil” than the US when it comes to climate change. But their actions are clearly no the actions of a country who “believes in climate change”. | | |
| ▲ | ralferoo an hour ago | parent [-] | | > But their actions are clearly no the actions of a country who “believes in climate change”. I'd be willing to bet that you've not been to China. Shenzhen is a very green city, I'll go into that later, but also Beijing and Shanghai have historically had serious problems with smog in summer, and this has got significantly better in recent years as local government pushes companies towards renewable energy sources and close down coal power stations. For example in Shenzhen, all buses and taxis have to be EV, and around 80% of all new privately owned cars are also EVs. That seems like a city that believes in climate change. You've got vast swathes of desert covered by solar panels providing electricity further east (although sadly, a lot is waste due to transmission inefficiencies). That seems like a country that believes in climate change. You've got a country that produces 80% of the world's solar panels, and has over 1/3 of the worldwide installation of solar panels. That seems like a country that believes in climate change. You've got a country with massive windfarms and a net exporter of wind turbines. Combined, over 1/4 of all electricity in China comes from renewables. That seems like a country that believes in climate change. You've got a country that uses a lot of battery storage to smooth power demand, and exports these units to pretty much everywhere because they're about the best you can get. That seems like a country that believes in climate change. You've got a country that built the massive three gorges dam project, started in the 1990s and finished nearly a quarter of a century ago. That seems like a country that believes in climate change. Sure, there's still a long way to go, and due to the massive energy demands, it still has coal power stations providing about half it's electricity generation needs. That needle is shifting over time, but you know what? It's still half coal and yet it still only has 2/3 the emissions per capita compared to the US. But even if it still has a long way to go, its actions clearly ARE the actions of a country that believes in climate change. |
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| ▲ | onetimeusename 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think per capita emissions is the only metric that should be used. Environmental impact is not measured per capita. Also it blames people in the US for energy consumed here to manufacture which includes exports for people abroad. The US's per capita emissions are not even far away from other similar nations. It's a data point, sure. It's comparable to Canada and Australia and even South Korea. Where did you get that the US emits 45x the UK? Another point is there is evidence[1] China has cheated and manipulated their data[2]. I don't like this "who are the good guys" game. Anyone playing this game is just looking to create a narrative about good and bad guys. [1]: https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news-research/latest-news... [2]: https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-new-carbon-metri... |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | USA emits 2165574,97709 times more than Faroe Islands. Sounds like they should be forced to limit that to some reasonable level say 2x of that of Faroe Islands. Don't think it would be too big ask right? | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | China produces 1/3 of the world’s CO2. They already produce more per capita than all other large developed countries except Australia, the US, and Russia. And their rate of growth is higher than all of those countries except Russia. There’s no way to force them to do anything, but this is not that action of a nation that “believes in climate change”. | | |
| ▲ | nixon_why69 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's while being the world's factory, having lots of green energy, electric cars and an ACUTE motivation to reduce oil imports. Coal is a problem but at least they're not canceling half-finished green energy products when administrations change. | | |
| ▲ | 1234letshaveatw 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | are you advocating for not changing administrations? | | |
| ▲ | nixon_why69 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is that a good faith question? Please check the site guidelines. | | |
| ▲ | 1234letshaveatw an hour ago | parent [-] | | It is, and certainly relevant (although perhaps inconvenient) considering the recent elections in China. Aren't shifting priorities a side effect of free elections? |
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| ▲ | beepbooptheory 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Kind of a meta point but for those who don't know, its fun to track this comment and its responses through time. I want to nominate it for the hall of fame in classic HN post genre. It will be two decades soon! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=21&prefix=false&q... One interesting thing would be to see how the numbers change over the years alongside the otherwise identical debates. |
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| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >China believes in Climate change and are at least taking steps to address it I've got a bridge to sell you! |
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| ▲ | inigyou 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Been there. Great place. High standard of living, everyone is very productive. Still a dictatorship, and you can't speak ill of the government, but a successful one. | | |
| ▲ | Natfan 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | my understanding is that you can speak ill of the government publicly? like they'll nuke your billibilli if you talk shit about xi, but you can complain privately to a friend not saying i agree with it, i'm saying it isn't as severe as the west makes it out to be | | |
| ▲ | ozgrakkurt 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That is an extremely low bar. Imagine you couldn't do that, that would basically be George Orwell's 1984. |
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| ▲ | Envwnger 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What if they don't live in USA? | |
| ▲ | psychoslave 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Abstracted from the HN specific audience, there’s around 17% chance they already do, which is to compare to the "around 4%" chance they live in USA. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by... | |
| ▲ | mad_tortoise 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is such an hilarious answer. For most of the non-Western world, we don't distrust China because they have created benefits for the developing world. Whereas the USA has been outright imperialist for the past 60-70 years, undermining and overthrowing developing democracies, putting in dictators, using international organisations as debt traps, waging and funding wars that put our lives and economies at risk. It is so pathetic how American's see themselves, and are so deeply afraid of China. I am far more fearful of the predatory nature of the USA and its agencies than I could ever be of China who would never have any interest in me. | | |
| ▲ | ToValueFunfetti 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank god. I'd been hearing we screwed up catastrophically by electing an admin that took a chainsaw to our foreign aid programs, killing millions in the developing world. Such a relief to learn we were never doing that stuff in the first place. | | |
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| ▲ | brettermeier 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | Der_Einzige 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The ROI for (white) men going to China for a period of their lives is extremely high. Where else are you going to get your “Abg cmo” |
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