| ▲ | embedding-shape 6 hours ago |
| > This situation has.. no precedent as far as I can tell.. Microsoft has been allowing this sort of ludicrous behavior for decades at this point, it's not a new issue. What's new is how visible LG made their malware, compared to previous auto-installs that happen like this, where they try to make the thing not so in your face, as they know there will be a huge backlash. I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing, they've lost all touch when it comes to building things for users. |
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| ▲ | MichaelZuo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Maybe some decision makers do indeed have negative aspirations… |
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| ▲ | ihsw 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigated. As such, all manner of monetization has been approved and it will continued to be approved without regard for user experience. This article obviates that this is not an LG problem, it is a Microsoft problem. Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. |
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| ▲ | Grombobulous 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small. I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail. This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked. | | |
| ▲ | mrob 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | >This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked. I installed Debian 13 recently. The first time I opened Firefox ESR (installed by default), I got something that looked like adverts on the home page (banner blindness means I have no memory of what they actually were, only of the feeling of disgust). The Home section of the Settings page had options for "Sponsored shortcuts" and "Sponsored stories" enabled by default. Changing a default setting is a lot easier than forking software, yet it was not done. | |
| ▲ | geon 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare? I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop. | | |
| ▲ | ufmace 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think they are anymore. The vast majority of ordinary person computer/internet use has already moved to smartphones, tablets, smart TVs and other such devices. It seems nowadays many people don't even know the basics about how to use a desktop operating system. | | |
| ▲ | Aerroon an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I find this hard to believe considering how bad the UIs are on phones and TVs. Even google.com does not offer feature parity between their desktop and mobile websites. My phone still didn't come with a functional paint or notepad apps. Google docs is a horrible experience on phones (but at least it works now - a few years ago it was straight up unusable). And you're telling me that this is the only computing platform for a lot of people? How is everything still so unusable about it then? My experience tells me that everything mobile is basically an afterthought outside of a few dozen websites and I guess phone games. | | |
| ▲ | mrob 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That fact that you're posting on a web forum makes you an outlier. Most people only passively consume, and mobile devices are good enough for that. | |
| ▲ | picofarad 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | My phone still doesn't have a calculator app. The thought of trying to add one that isnt wolfram alpha is anxiety-producing. |
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| ▲ | smelendez 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Right. Laptops are basically work (or school) tools now for a lot of people. They might have one tucked away that they pull out now and then when they need it, similar to a power drill or a sewing machine. It’s not a daily use device. I think it helped Microsoft historically that people used their operating systems at home, although even then a lot of people would have learned Windows at work or school first. | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | eastbound 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft. | | |
| ▲ | VorpalWay 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Dont forget they own github too. The vast majority of open source software is on there these days. Yes there are other options: gitlab.com, some project specific gitlab instances (freedesktop for example), forejo / codeberg, and the Linux kernel is off doing it's own thing with mailing lists instead. I even come across code on SourceForge every now and then still. But all of these are super niche. | |
| ▲ | solarkraft 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in. | | |
| ▲ | chuckadams an hour ago | parent [-] | | They created TypeScript, and maintain it now. It's not exactly a business for them, no one is buying "TypeScript Enterprise" subscriptions. It's all under the Apache License 2.0 and certainly big enough that if they started pulling anything untoward, it would see a fork. Sometimes Microsoft produces an unalloyed good, they're not a monolith. |
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| ▲ | SinkingRock 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And VS Code, and Github... | | |
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| ▲ | necovek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As long as you have a computer that can run unsigned software, or software signed by yourself, this won't come to Linux as non-optional features: you can always recompile your kernel removing things you do not want like this. | | |
| ▲ | tosti 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And before anyone goes "but I can't patch that!", all it takes is one clever guy to write the patch. This is also why the bazaar model of Linux distributions is beneficial. You get more choice. | |
| ▲ | numpad0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ubuntu snap |
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| ▲ | kstrauser an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It hasn’t come for the much larger Mac world yet. I think literally the only driver I’ve installed for any accessory of any kind is the config utility for a Stream Deck. I certainly never install mouse (thank you Steermouse!) or printer drivers, let alone a monitor driver of all things. | |
| ▲ | treyd 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. I'm curious what you mean by this. I'm not necessarily rejecting the point, but I also don't see how this could happen without substantial shifts in the industry first. | | |
| ▲ | evilduck an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, curious here too. Torvalds would need to pass first I think, and I just don't see other major players like RedHat, Google, Canonical, or Valve introducing this themselves or agreeing to do it in aggregate. And as end users we could still fork and patch it out. Some shitty company might try but I don't think it would stand. |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing This has been a feature since Windows 7, and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. |
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| ▲ | coldtea 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. A driver shouldn't be a front-facing program that shows ads of any kind. It should be sandboxed and follow strict APIs to talk to the OS and that's it - any extra options should be shown inline in the main e.g. printer or mouse dialog. | | |
| ▲ | threetonesun 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? I think extra options in an app is fine, but you should have to download it. At which point who knows what you’ve opened yourself to but at least you chose to do it. | | |
| ▲ | VorpalWay 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Actually, why not? The driver could declare a list/tree of extra configurable options, and windows could generate a configuration dialog for them. I think this is already is thing in Windows for NICs, I remember seeing TCP offload options when I go into properties for a NIC in the device manager. You just need to make it a bit more accessible to non-tech users and with more modern control options such as colour wheels for RGB. And the Linux software for these sort of devices (when such software exist) don't tend to be as bloated. Usually the driver just exposes some control files under /sys and someone else builds a GUI or such on top. But there is no reason you couldn't also expose a schema that describes what the options do to make a more generic GUI for those. | | |
| ▲ | threetonesun an hour ago | parent [-] | | As a user I agree, but I think this misunderstands the Windows market. Forget about mice for a second, if you look at GPU drivers between Linux and Windows on Linux they... just work, and you can use some apps to modify exposed features, like you said. On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with. |
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| ▲ | isityettime 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Configurable peripherals should store their configurations entirely on-board, and they should be configurable using a well-understood protocol. Users can then use either the vendor's application, a common third-party application, or the configuration interface native to their desktop environment to configure them. When they plug them into a new machine, they should just keep working without having to install any configuration software. Many generations of Roccat peripherals were usable this way on Linux, thanks to the work of one generous volunteer who reverse-engineered them. Companies like Logitech don't store their devices' configs in firmware in a way that "forces" you to run some additional shit to use all of their features (some features aren't implemented in software). It's a convenient excuse that allows them to push their spyware onto users, but it's totally unnecessary. A vendor that was actually "user friendly" in the deep sense (opposite of "user hostile") would do this themselves; configuration would be upstream-first via libratbagd or whatever, and then they'd provide their own configuration interface as a value-add for a uniform cross-platform experience, or in areas where they thought they could provide a better UI than the design principles of KDE and GNOME, or so that they could have a uniform interface to refer to in their documentation. | |
| ▲ | LucasOe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Drivers should just make my stuff work. If I want to configure my hardware, I download the app from the manufacturer's website. | |
| ▲ | solarkraft 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes! Extra apps suck. |
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| ▲ | michaelmrose 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Linux users think of a driver as the thing that makes my silently hardware do the existing things its supposed to do like every other item in its class. Windows users think of the driver as what makes the hardware do what everything in its class does but subtly different and somehow glued to a command center with its own unique and bad GUI auto started, in the tray, with its own update schedule, and ads. | |
| ▲ | MatejKafka 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How exactly do you propose to sandbox drivers running in kernel space? Do you even know how drivers work? (I'm guessing no, based on this comment) | | |
| ▲ | toast0 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Microsoft has a program to do static and dynamic analysis of drivers... not a sandbox, but better than nothing. Of course, wonky drivers plus wonky hardware can still do bad things (io-mmu can help, a bit). The problems tend to be in the userspace software that's also installed with the driver. Sometimes there's also some pretty derpy stuff where the driver wants to talk to the userspace software but there's no validation/verification and that opens up a big hole. | |
| ▲ | milesvp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are people working on this problem honestly. The general solution 10 years ago was a micro kernel. Today, I’m not sure. The linux model is starting to look dated, with similar problems elsewhere. Modern hardware design looks less and less like classic textbook design, with all kinds of random chips having direct memory access to memory the cpu uses on some shared bus. Where even things like on board blue tooth chips can become attack vectors on the system. There was a good keynote on the topic 5 years ago By Timothy Roscoe https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi21/presentation/fri-ke... | | |
| ▲ | MatejKafka an hour ago | parent [-] | | Agree with all of those points and there are some partial solutions (IOMMU, userspace drivers, virtualization,...), but we're still quite far from being able to safely connect untrusted hardware and load its driver without effectively giving it privileged access. |
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| ▲ | masfuerte 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The User-Mode Driver Framework is a thing. Most plug-in devices do not need (or have) a kernel-mode driver. | | |
| ▲ | MatejKafka an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but unless all 3rd party drivers can run in userspace (which is not really feasible), Microsoft needs to give vendors the option to install a kernel driver, at which point a vendor can always decide to ship a kernel driver and bypass any restrictions. Imo, the only thing Microsoft can meaningfully do here from their side is threaten LG with pulling all their drivers if they keep doing this. |
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| ▲ | marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. Except for every printer, some popular GPUs, Microsoft's peripherals... | |
| ▲ | wat10000 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Auto-run when inserting a CD worked great, until people realized you could do bad stuff with it. User action must be required to run or install new software. |
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