| ▲ | babblingfish 2 hours ago |
| Speculation: open models is what will kill Anthropic and OpenAI. Hyperscalers can run the models without a licensing fee. Apple can make them smaller and put them on the device. The frontier models are an edge and a liability. They're astronomically expensive to train. Without them, their models will fade into obscurity. Their marketing depends on people believing the models are meaningfully different, as people have sweatily argued on this forum. Personally, I'm not convinced there's much of a difference between these models at this point. The harness is what takes these random and hallucinogenic models and make them into something deterministic and useful. |
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| ▲ | kurthr an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm a bit skeptical of the token cost/ROI for all models, but sunk costs are sunk. It has the feel of self-improving super-intelligence or bust to me.
If you get that, the frontier model(s) run away with a faster exponential.
It's a bit like semi with Moore's Law with silicon, GaAs could never catch up. If you don't get it, the fast followers crush the high investment and there's no moat. Not like they can enforce copyright! |
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| ▲ | mft_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Open models are probably also comparatively astronomically expensive to train - just less so than the frontier models because they’re somewhat smaller, +/- the creators are more incentivised to focus on getting more from less compute because they’re have to, +/- they rely on distillation of the frontier models and this is more efficient. But efficiencies aside; creation of open models still requires a lot of money and compute from a large organisation which is willing to accept zero return for that spend. This largesse is unlikely to continue forever; so the question is which will crack first, the frontier models’ business model or the fast followers’ generosity? |
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| ▲ | demosthanos an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, the problem with comparing open models to open source is that open source requires humans to volunteer their time. Open models requires humans to volunteer their money. These two types of contributions have very different behavioral profiles, and it doesn't obviously follow that the historical success of getting people to collaborate socially on building software for fun and for the benefit of the community will translate in any meaningful way to the necessity of being able to raise enormous amounts of money to pay for enormous amounts of electricity. | | |
| ▲ | connicpu 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Technically open source requires some amount of monetary volunteering, it's just that the electricity to run a code editor and compile (most) open source code bases is within hobby budget for most people. |
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| ▲ | chaosharmonic an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think it needs to be framed purely as generosity. You just need a sufficiently self-interested actor that sees open ecosystems as a necessary part of reducing their own risk profile, relative to the alternative of complete reliance of a third-party business that can take an exorbitant cut and/or Sherlock them at any time. Valve and SteamOS are a good example of what this idea looks like in practice. (Though they may also illustrate a third thing you need: a privately-run company, that has enough profit, and enough commitment from leadership to the company's vision, that they can make long-term bets without having to eventually bow to investors seeking short-term gains.) | |
| ▲ | afavour an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’m not exactly sure on the “how” but it only makes logical sense for (non-AI) companies to band together to fund the training of a shared model. Apple is a great example, AI is not their core business but they still require it. The only thing that took us down a different path is the vast sums of VC funding pumped into the AI companies. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If not for VC-funded LLMs there wouldn't be any LLMs. | | |
| ▲ | LunaSea 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of the innovations needed for LLMs came from people at Google. | | | |
| ▲ | afavour 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [citation needed] Historically speaking a lot of inventions have come about without things like VC investment. Either way, there’s probably little point in debating it, just because VC funded companies control the market now doesn’t mean they should indefinitely. |
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| ▲ | sph an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | How does it work if people flock to open models but they're too expensive to train? What is the financial incentive to do so? I seem to understand open models are mostly coming from China, and the benefit of training and releasing them for 'free' is a powerful geopolitical weapon against the Western/US economy that at this point depends on OpenAI & co. to succeed. Will the West make open models illegal? | | |
| ▲ | echelon 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Will the West make open models illegal? We better not. > What is the financial incentive to do so? If we'd been sharing all along (as we should have been), we probably would have gotten even further along in the development of the tech. Think of everything we could do if every researcher on the planet had first class access to the frontier. No academic fallback models. No crude API access. No limits, but direct access to the weights and the ability to lobotomize, splice, and dice. We could pour intelligence from one container to the next without paying a tax or wearing a blindfold. All without spilling a drop. *Open* *Must* *Win* | | | |
| ▲ | LorenDB 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | "You wouldn't download an LLM" | | |
| ▲ | sph 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You wouldn't crash the stock market by preferring Chinese models. |
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| ▲ | ComputerGuru 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Apple can make them smaller and put them on the device Someone can, but Apple has essentially admitted defeat and handed the reigns over to Google. |
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| ▲ | braiamp 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The real moat aren't the models, but the tooling around the models that allow them to perform specific tasks/goals. That's what really sets apart frontier vs open. Open only has the model itself, closed have the tooling to enhance the model. |
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| ▲ | goolz 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Completely agree. Once I can reliably get open models doing what I am on Fable ultra I imagine I will switch for good. I am fortunate to have access to a decent bit of local RAM, 192GB of DDR5 at an OK speed. It is not enough and costs are well past absurd. In a few years time I envisage a setup that is sub $10k which can accomplish such tasks. The pace so far has been breakneck. That is all I personally need. That may change, but until true AGI I do think there will be a ceiling to how much I will pay for something frontier if it is only marginally better. |
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| ▲ | wosk 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This is easier to say as Fable is good (even SOTA). But people have been were saying this continuously for the current model and for now the improvement are still coming. A better question is would you settle for o3 now or pay 20$ or 200$/month for fable ? Because o3 quality is available OSS. It is like the new IPhone, in some sort. At some point come a feature many would like to have, despite diminishing returns. We will see how long labs can keep up and what the scaling curve look like, but I would be more worried into losing sota status to Chinese companies than letting them take the open non-sota approach. | | |
| ▲ | Vespasian 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think there is also the case were companies will simply use different tiers for different tasks. While the engineering team might need a cutting edge model (with the associated costs), the marketing department will be fine by something that can grammar correct or turn a few bullet points into prose. Likewise you already don't need Fable for Ticket -> RAG -> Reply with Faq knowledge or escalate workflows That's already the case with other very expensive software like CAD packages were oftentimes you have different feature sets enabled for different employees. |
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| ▲ | elorant 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Eventually they will kill the hyperscalers too because of privacy issues. It's better for a company to pay an uprfont cost and then run everything on premise that uploading their entire codebase to a third party service. |
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| ▲ | nacs 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The vast majority of companies are still putting most things in the cloud and will continue to do so and this far outnumbers the must-be-on-premise companies. Sure there will be self-hosters but hosting AI models will always be more of a challenge than running scalable database on your own hardware and specialized hyperscalers will be here. | |
| ▲ | xkcd-sucks 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Would that require a watershed event to clearly establish the importance/risk of privacy though? For example, right now it seems like most big software companies w/ strong security process are comfortable uploading entire codebases to Israeli cybersecurity firms for vulnerability scanning compliance purposes |
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| ▲ | paulddraper 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Their marketing depends on people believing the models are meaningfully different, as people have sweatily argued on this forum. They are noticeably different. Benchmarks, anecdotes, all say the same thing. Now, is a ~6 month lead actually worth 1 gajillion dollars? Maybe not. |
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| ▲ | cma 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You can run the same harness on fable, opus, sonnet, and see a huge difference between them. It is true the harness is important, and openai has begun encryption its instructions to swarmed sub-agents instead of just encrypting the chain of thought, but the model is still important at this stage. |
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| ▲ | ActionHank 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This will only delay the inevitable. Sitting on some magic prompts is hardly the moat they need. | |
| ▲ | Alpha3031 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Referent of "the models are meaningfully different" reads as <top closed, top open> rather than <top closed, cheaper closed> to me, so I'm not sure why we'd be comparing Fable vs Opus/Sonnet or Sol vs Terra rather than the same against Kimi K3. | | |
| ▲ | Zababa 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Haven't tried Kimi K3 for now but there was a huge difference between GPT 5.6/Fable and GLM 5.2/Kimi K2.7 that were previous frontier open models. |
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| ▲ | sublinear 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I still strongly believe Google Gemini has the best position for one simple reason: model maintenance. Accurate information is a moving target. Open models are indeed very capable, but they will eventually become more specialized to the application to keep an edge. It makes perfect sense that the future shape of AI conforms to the landscape it was born out of. |
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| ▲ | inigyou 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Grok has the biggest advantage in current events knowledge because it's integrated with X, which enough people still use even though it isn't Twitter. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Hm, when compared to all the information people with android devices share with google, or those with gmail, .. |
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| ▲ | lgessler 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're saying it's important to have up-to-date facts stored in parametric knowledge? It seems to me like that's grown less and less important as agentic capabilities have grown. Even if a frontier model doesn't know something, if it's out there, it can easily find it through tool use. |
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| ▲ | Mistletoe an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Open models are 4k TV (or maybe 1080p tv now and 4k TV soon) and SOTA frontier models are 8k TV. Can I or the average user tell the difference? Not really. Would they pay for that difference? Not a chance. Our entire economy is teetering on some future hope that this fragile and immaterial difference will pay off, when the reality is that LLMs are a race to the bottom and eventual razor thin margins. Maybe a tiny vocal subset of programmers can use it for work and make paying for it worth it to them, but that can't prop up an entire economy, especially when said programmers are phased out, jobless, and replaced by AI with each better iteration... |
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| ▲ | Zababa 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The thing about not much difference between models and the harness making them deterministic and useful is wrong. Also models have different strengths and weaknesses and some are better at almost everything by a large margin compared to others. As for your speculation, I think it's hinging on some companies releasing models for free or no big differences between models. In a world with hyperscalers and companies training models you can quickly recreate Anthropic or OpenAI by having an hyperscaler ally with a model training company, train a good/a better model, and not release it. |
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| ▲ | fnord77 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just like opensource search engines killed google oh wait |
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| ▲ | blanched an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I don’t even know the names of any open source search engines, but the open source models perform decently on various benchmarks and in personal experience. Was it ever even a claim that open source search engines were trying to outperform google, let alone kill it? | | |
| ▲ | wongarsu 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yacy tried in the 2000s. I'm sure some magazines made headlines posing the question whether yacy is a google-killer |
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| ▲ | inigyou 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Marginalia already gives me better results for many queries than Google. Because Google has sunk so low. |
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| ▲ | gallerdude an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Even in the world where all models are basically equivalent (a thesis I don’t buy, but will grant you for arguments sake) - I believe there is much more to the AI business than just training and running models. It’s a very new set of technologies, and understanding what is useful to customers and what isn’t is the whole game. Call it, product taste. There were a million cell phones before the iPhone took over the world. Why iPhone? Product taste. There are a million startups, and only a select few become unicorns. Why? Product taste. |
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| ▲ | khurs an hour ago | parent [-] | | >There were a million cell phones before the iPhone took over the world. You have tripped yourself up there. iPhone took over as it introduced something innovative over standard phones, but then Open Source (Android) matched the multi-touch and software differences and Apple's branding, lock-in and design etc have managed to keep it as a big player in wealthier countries. IPhone also came on the back of the massive iPod success. ChatGPT launched the same innovation vs Google Search, but just like Android Opensource AI is moving fast now. Android has 72.7% market share at present, Open Source AI will do the same unless the frontier labs can continue to do something new. The frontier labs are saddled with enormous investor and other debts. How long they can keep innovating by spending so much on R&D and paying there staff very high wages remains to be seen. Once investors cash out via an IPO, the companies are back down to earth and playing in the real world again. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There were many smartphones before both iOS and Android. | |
| ▲ | gallerdude an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Android has market share, but Apple makes all of the money! I find it really funny when people attribute Apple’s success to “oh, the only reason they succeed is design and marketing.” Yeah, I mean factually speaking design and marketing actually do matter a lot! Us developer types like to pretend like specs are the only thing that matters? If you could have a 10x more powerful model you could only access running locally through your terminal, versus a weaker model through a clean web interface, normies will pick the web ui every single time. Product experience is simply everything, as much as we like to pretend like nitty technical decisions are the most important thing. | | |
| ▲ | afavour 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Android has market share, but Apple makes all of the money! So? The benefit of open source is that you don’t have to worry about making a ton of money. You just need to be viable. Apple: premium product a minority is willing to pay for Android: standard product the majority use I’m sure there will continue to be iPhone equivalents in the AI world, premium bespoke models. But the vast majority of people will be happy with a cheaper offering. | | |
| ▲ | gallerdude 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The original comment was “open models are what kill OpenAI and Anthropic”, which to me is as silly as saying “Android is what killed Apple” |
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