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mft_ 2 hours ago

Open models are probably also comparatively astronomically expensive to train - just less so than the frontier models because they’re somewhat smaller, +/- the creators are more incentivised to focus on getting more from less compute because they’re have to, +/- they rely on distillation of the frontier models and this is more efficient.

But efficiencies aside; creation of open models still requires a lot of money and compute from a large organisation which is willing to accept zero return for that spend. This largesse is unlikely to continue forever; so the question is which will crack first, the frontier models’ business model or the fast followers’ generosity?

demosthanos an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, the problem with comparing open models to open source is that open source requires humans to volunteer their time. Open models requires humans to volunteer their money.

These two types of contributions have very different behavioral profiles, and it doesn't obviously follow that the historical success of getting people to collaborate socially on building software for fun and for the benefit of the community will translate in any meaningful way to the necessity of being able to raise enormous amounts of money to pay for enormous amounts of electricity.

connicpu 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

Technically open source requires some amount of monetary volunteering, it's just that the electricity to run a code editor and compile (most) open source code bases is within hobby budget for most people.

chaosharmonic an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think it needs to be framed purely as generosity. You just need a sufficiently self-interested actor that sees open ecosystems as a necessary part of reducing their own risk profile, relative to the alternative of complete reliance of a third-party business that can take an exorbitant cut and/or Sherlock them at any time.

Valve and SteamOS are a good example of what this idea looks like in practice. (Though they may also illustrate a third thing you need: a privately-run company, that has enough profit, and enough commitment from leadership to the company's vision, that they can make long-term bets without having to eventually bow to investors seeking short-term gains.)

afavour 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m not exactly sure on the “how” but it only makes logical sense for (non-AI) companies to band together to fund the training of a shared model. Apple is a great example, AI is not their core business but they still require it.

The only thing that took us down a different path is the vast sums of VC funding pumped into the AI companies.

inigyou 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

If not for VC-funded LLMs there wouldn't be any LLMs.

LunaSea 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Most of the innovations needed for LLMs came from people at Google.

echelon 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> came from people at Google

Who had to leave to build anything.

inigyou 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

So VC-funded.

afavour 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[citation needed]

Historically speaking a lot of inventions have come about without things like VC investment. Either way, there’s probably little point in debating it, just because VC funded companies control the market now doesn’t mean they should indefinitely.

sph an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

How does it work if people flock to open models but they're too expensive to train? What is the financial incentive to do so?

I seem to understand open models are mostly coming from China, and the benefit of training and releasing them for 'free' is a powerful geopolitical weapon against the Western/US economy that at this point depends on OpenAI & co. to succeed.

Will the West make open models illegal?

echelon 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Will the West make open models illegal?

We better not.

> What is the financial incentive to do so?

If we'd been sharing all along (as we should have been), we probably would have gotten even further along in the development of the tech.

Think of everything we could do if every researcher on the planet had first class access to the frontier. No academic fallback models. No crude API access. No limits, but direct access to the weights and the ability to lobotomize, splice, and dice.

We could pour intelligence from one container to the next without paying a tax or wearing a blindfold. All without spilling a drop.

*Open* *Must* *Win*

inigyou 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

> No X. No Y. No Z, but Q

LorenDB 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

"You wouldn't download an LLM"

sph 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

You wouldn't crash the stock market by preferring Chinese models.