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theplumber an hour ago

I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. Keep in mind that these companies are in the business of stealing IP work and reselling it to you with "safety checks" so asking if they use your usage data for training is a bit naive at best. At least the Chinese companies are more open and give back to the community compared with the "frontier" providers.

nikcub an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse.

No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that.

Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not.

The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse.

[0] opt-in, thanks

victor106 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I would think they are not but Alex Karp CEO of Palantir seems to imply that they are:

https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM

I found it a little shocking TBH

theplumber 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse.

Their terms are not worth shit considering they are reselling you stolen copyrighted data. Even in they terms they started clearly say they retain your data for "safety reasons" for however long they want. Perhaps you didn't watch the space with Anthropic going back and forth with ToS updates(we retain your data for 30 days...stike that and add 30 days or more or no or ..whatever) like my own alpha website.

demosthanos 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

There is an enormous difference between:

* Exploiting ambiguity around fair use at a large scale before the law catches up and then jointly lobbying with your competition to make sure your interpretation of the law becomes reality.

* Explicitly signing a contract with enterprises to respect their IP and then proceeding to break that contract with your own customers.

The former is firmly in the gray area of legality and doesn't directly hurt your own customers. The latter is both an unambiguous contract violation and a flagrant attack on your own customers' most valuable asset.

TurdF3rguson 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> if you use the coding plans they train in return.

No, you have to opt-in to that. There's a privacy toggle on account settings.

mahkeiro an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are we talking about the company sending back private information through its client to « fight » model distillation?

theshrike79 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes.

Enterprise contracts are checked and agreed by lawyers. The contract states no training.

If the provider fucks up, there are actual monetary damages defined for breach of contract.

fluoridation 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's an unenforceable clause. The affected party has no means to prove that a breach has happened.

hedora 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anthropic constantly uses dark patterns to steal training data from customers (like the “how is claude doing” spam, data retention loosening when the safeguards false positive, etc).

dwa3592 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

lmao, wasn't xAI caught doing this recently? moreover at least moonshot is being honest about it.

enraged_camel an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse.

So in your opinion, they are training on your data even if you toggle the "don't train on my data" checkbox off?

That's a bold assertion.

eckelhesten an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not the guy you responded to, but I would assume ”they keep it safe” somewhere in a cold storage. Just in case they decide to train on it in a later phase.

Think of it as the Big Data hype some years ago.

jvuygbbkuurx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, their entire existence relies on training on copyrighted content without permission being ok.

demosthanos 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

You truly see no difference between having a perhaps-overly-generous definition of fair use and flagrantly breaking contracts that you signed with your customers?

inigyou an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why wouldn't they?

gpm an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Because the legal system does, in fact, have teeth. And those teeth actually deploy pretty readily. Especially when the people whose trade secrets you would be violating are gargantuan companies with enough resources that the cost of a lawsuit is a rounding error.

40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
inigyou 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

First it has to discover a violation.

gpm 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah but a disgruntled employee would talk sooner or later.

processunknown 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pay to play teeth

gpm a minute ago | parent [-]

To an extent, though for significant (in monetary terms) violations of the law the teeth tend to pay for themselves (but do so by not fully compensating the people whose behalf they are supposedly acting on).

More problematically there are camouflaged sharp spines pointed primarily in the direction of poorer people, and people not advised by lawyers.

But none of that matters here when the damaged parties include the megacorps of the world.

theplumber 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

no it doesn't. If it would have teeth they would not resell copyright data. They will be busted like Kim DotCom

gpm 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

No AI company has been reselling copyright data to my knowledge, it would be truly bizarre if they did that.

What they have been doing, with some narrow exceptions where they have lost billions of dollars in court cases*, is not at all obviously prohibited by copyright law. Neither web scraping (i.e. asking for copies of data from people you have every reason to believe are authorized to give you copies) or running algorithms on copyrighted data are generally copyright infringment. I say generally because the "algorithm" of "ctrl-c ctrl-v" is obviously an exception, and there's some argument that training is similar enough to be illegal - a fairly weak argument that is mostly losing in court but has some tiny chance of still succeeding.

The law doesn't have teeth to prohibit things not prohibited under the law - no matter how much many people would like them to be prohibited. This shouldn't be surprising.

Unlike with copyright, the law does pretty clearly prohibit violating contractual terms to not hang onto or use other peoples data for purposes other than the narrow ones laid out in the contract when you agreed to the contract.

* Namely acquiring copies of data from people who they know aren't authorized to make copies - i.e. torrenting.

ghshephard an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Because the value obtained from doing so is unlikely to exceed the cost of the lawsuits if they were ever caught doing so.

entropicdrifter an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]