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m132 2 hours ago

The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. The amount of questionable decisions coming from those three in the recent (15) years is extremely unsettling. The parliament and courts are practically the only institutions preventing things from hitting the fan at this point, and struggling to do so, it seems.

junto 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m convinced of widespread corruption here. We need to follow the money. Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans? I guess my question is rhetorical.

an hour ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
cryo32 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or corruption. It’s just design by committee bureaucracy. It always fails into that state.

everyone an hour ago | parent | next [-]

And no committee, no bureaucracy, no regulations, just let corporations do whatever they want, works great right!? It's not like it immediately collapses to despotism as the slightly bigger fish gobbles up everything in a positive feedback process.

With an egalitarian government, corruption is a problem, its bad, its something we try to fight and there are mechanisms to do so. Having no government is just giving up and going straight to 100% corruption.

cryo32 an hour ago | parent [-]

I’m not suggesting that at all. I am simply suggesting that bureaucracies have their own specific failure models.

I am very pro regulation.

everyone an hour ago | parent [-]

Ok, theres defo a lot of idiots on HN and in USA who disagree with you.

Still, kinda weird to complain about bureaucracy and regulations in this context cus its the only solution to these problems of egality and corruption which humanity has been struggling with ever since the dawn of civilisation.

Tho, It's kind of a solved problem too. We should all just try to be like Denmark, they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon. They have a massive powerful bureaucracy, lots of strong regulation, extremely high taxes, low corruption.

The solution to any eco-geo-political issue is just "be more like Denmark". Once everyone gets to that level we can think about further improvement.

Ray20 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> We should all just try to be like Denmark

Wait, but doesn't Denmark have the strictest immigration policies in the entire EU?

> they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting deporting all migrants to improve the statistics to Denmark's level? But that's impossible in our legal system. We've been actively importing culturally incompatible foreigners for decades now, and many already have citizenship. You can't just strip people of their citizenship in an attempt to improve the statistics.

hobo123 7 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Is that the same Denmark that tried to push Chat Control 2.0 in the EU?

greenavocado an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s just design by committee bureaucracy and its members attend Bohemian Grove

cryo32 an hour ago | parent [-]

I genuinely don’t think such folk have as much influence and power as everyone thinks. In my (direct) experience it’s just a complete mess and they’re reacting naively to every problem.

They’re fighting a battle against the real problem which is the paid up influence campaigns that give them problems to defend. Start at the press, the social media companies and the think tanks.

greenavocado an hour ago | parent [-]

They form these groups to network and do favors for each other and provide cover for each other. After a while you are asked to do increasingly compromising things to yourself to do deeper into/stay part of the club such as blood rituals. Bohemian Grove high priest Henry Kissinger led simulated animal sacrifice rituals attended by many others in the "inner circles" of the top strata of decision makers and wallet holders. They do this because engaging in a common taboo unites the group extremely strongly, and these behaviors are the ultimate taboo.

joe_mamba 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans?

Why are we ignoring the other side of the transaction? The side responsible for taking the money.

Giving bribes for lobbying is bad, but that would not be an issue if those found taking the bribes would be guillotined or hanged.

kingleopold 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

they dont investigate themselves, I hope you understand those details some day.

m132 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They do, albeit it's a slow process:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate

- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-secret-gr...

Ironically, those are two separate cases of one high-profile EU politician (in fact, the very head of the same parliament that pushes for mass scanning of private messages) BOTH involving secret text messages that the mentioned politician refuses to reveal.

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
theodric 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The government will investigate the government and find that the government did nothing wrong. A subsequent government review of the government's investigation of the government will find no wrongdoing on the part of the government. Ain't democracy grand?

ipaddr 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

Then blame Russia. Rinse and repeat.

joe_mamba 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated.

By WHO?! They are THE (unelected) ruling elite. Who's gonna prosecute them?

tokai 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

OLAF I would assume.

surgical_fire 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected.

The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected).

This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.

mattrighetti an hour ago | parent | next [-]

They’re indirectly elected through national governments and parliament. That’s different from being directly elected by citizens. Being appointed by elected politicians doesn’t make someone directly accountable to voters. Citizens don’t vote for commissioners, and it’s much harder for voters to remove or reward them based on their policies.

surgical_fire an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Ao is the prime minister in any country that adopts parliamentarism.

I am still to see as many people getting riled up about how those countries are not democratic.

Obscurity4340 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Ao?

mattrighetti an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Again, not a single word I’ve posted says “it’s un-democratic”

vrganj an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

So is the US president (Electoral College), the UK PM (Parliament) etc etc, yet you never hear complaints here from the same types.

Their opposition is ideological, democracy is just an excuse because their true views would be too unsavory to say out loud.

mattrighetti an hour ago | parent [-]

The criticism is about accountability, not whether the system is democratic.

The UK pm and the POTUS are both ultimately accountable through elections. In the UK, a general election can change the government. In the US, people vote specifically for presidential electors, even if it’s through the Electoral College.

The EU commission is different. People don’t vote for commissioners or the president, and they can’t vote them out in the same direct way.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>They are not unelected.

After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites?

  Role                         | Chosen by                                            | Direct citizen vote?
  -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+----------------------------
  Commission President         | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP)
  European Council President   | European Council (27 heads of state)                 | No
  European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves                     | No (indirect via EP)
  ECB President                | European Council, after consulting Parliament        | No
yorwba an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Those are primarily figureheads with limited power. The EU is not a presidential system. Which is good, because a single person can never well-represent an entire population, directly elected or not.

The council is more problematic, since a blocking majority might only represent 25% of the population (half of the EU member governments, each elected by majority vote), but in this case they voted in favor, so it's as if they didn't exist and the decision lies with parliament, whose composition is determined by proportional representation. Excellent!

The interesting thing here is that the EU is accused of being undemocratic not because special interests killed a law with wide support among the populace, but because all the different bodies might actually agree and pass a law that privacy activists don't like. Legislation by agreement of multiple cross-cutting majorities must clearly be undemocratic!

izacus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

By this standard there are no democracies in the world. Stop being ridiculous and repeating dumb russian propaganda.

surgical_fire an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him.

By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.

constantius 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Not the parent, but chill with the aggressive tone.

When you vote in your elections, you almost certainly know who's going to lead the country.

Not so with the EU: look up Spitzenkandidat method and the deviations from it, including von der Leyen in 2019 being parachuted into her post not based on any vote.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him.

That's kind of whataboutism. If that works for your country and the people are happy with the arrangement and the results of this system, I don't see an issue.

>By your own ridiculous standards

I don't think direct accountability to the citizens is a ridiculous concept. If you're unhappy with a MEP, your prime minister, you can vote them out or protest till they quit. But the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest. You're stuck taking up the ass from someone you never voted for and don't support.

CrisMystik an hour ago | parent [-]

> the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest

The Commission can be dismissed by the Parliament, with a majority of its members and 2/3 of votes cast