| ▲ | dibujaron 7 hours ago |
| This article makes Odin sound extremely well-known. I've never heard of it before, and I feel like I keep up with programming topics pretty diligently. Admittedly I don't work at the systems programming layer, but I've definitely heard plenty about Rust and c++ topics. Curious if others feel similarly, or maybe I just happened to miss it? |
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| ▲ | baranul 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| You never hearing about Odin, is an example of why its article was rejected by Wikipedia, because they failed at providing reputable references. The languages that you likely know of, often are corporate backed, with large marketing budgets and backdoor deals to help saturate traditional and social media. Newer languages, not of corporate origins, usually struggle to achieve public awareness or are purposefully choked out by negative propaganda and negative marketing tactics being unleashed against them. To achieve enough public awareness and momentum, they often need a certain level of luck, where a number of factors fall their way. |
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| ▲ | recursivecaveat 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would consider it extremely obscure overall. A large majority of programmers would not be aware of its existence. At the same time there are clearly much less popular languages with articles so it is kindof weird to push to delete. (eg: random scheme implementation w/ no releases in 20 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SISC) I would say that wikipedia broadly favors programming languages as far as notability. Like most nerd/geek things their footprint skews toward the internet, and people who enjoy geek stuff are more likely to be wikipedia admins than the general population. |
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| ▲ | woodruffw 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is an argument for deleting those non-notable articles as well, not retaining other non-notable articles. | |
| ▲ | nvme0n1p1 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | SISC is there because it's not notable, so the busybodies haven't even noticed the page exists. Odin, however, is notable, and that put it on their radar as a target for attacking its notability. | |
| ▲ | chris_wot 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not more obscure than Brainfuck. | | |
| ▲ | traes 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | What? Brainfuck is the single least obscure esoteric programming language. It's the most famous example of a simple Turing complete language and its provocative name gets it a fair amount of media coverage outside its niche. | | |
| ▲ | chris_wot 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Could you use it in production? | | |
| ▲ | traes 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | From Cambridge dictionary: obscure (adjective) not known to many people: - an obscure island in the Pacific - an obscure 12th-century mystic Why does its use in production matter? Perhaps the syntax itself is obscure, but we're not discussing syntax but general awareness. Anyway, the most common "real" use of brainfuck is to prove Turing completeness of other things by finding a way to compile them into brainfuck. | | |
| ▲ | chris_wot 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If you quote the dictionary to win an argument, quote it in full. There are two definitions of obscure in the Cambridge dictionary. The other is: obscure (adjective) not clear and difficult to understand or see: - Official policy has changed, for reasons that remain obscure. - His answers were obscure and confusing. - "the syntax itself is obscure" |
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| ▲ | andai 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The author protested the framing, but it's very much a game-dev oriented language. In fact, it's the most pleasant language for game development I have ever used. It comes with all sorts of "batteries included" in that direction, possibly more than any other existing language. (Well, I still didn't get my Jai invite, so who knows ;) Odin was a major influence on Jai.) |
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| ▲ | jibal 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | The author knows the orientation of his language better than anyone else. > Odin was a major influence on Jai. This is a popular joke because of the release timeline. The reality is the inverse, and Ginger Bill has acknowledged the influence of Jai. | | |
| ▲ | wtetzner 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The author knows the orientation of his language better than anyone else. The author knows the intention of the language better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean it isn't especially game dev oriented. | | |
| ▲ | dismalaf 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is C++ a game oriented language because most game engines and games are written in it? | | |
| ▲ | andai 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah oriented might be the wrong word here. "Surprisngly well suited for the job" is more like it. It was very ergonomic. In fact, I ended up translating my Odin game to several other languages and the experience was quite painful. (That's one way to measure the quality of a language! How much it hurts to port code out of it.) |
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| ▲ | andai 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I clearly remember Jonathan Blow talking about how Jai's syntax was influenced by his conversations with Bill. But it was 10+ years ago, so I might have gotten it mixed up. I think the influence ended up going both ways eventually though. | | |
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| ▲ | 3836293648 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think you just happened to miss it. It's very commonly mentioned in the new systems space, alongside Jonathan Blow's jai. |
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| ▲ | panzi 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am interested in programming language topics and I certainly have heard of Odin and have seen a couple of interviews with Ginger Bill. Same with Zig, Rust, Jai, C++ etc. I haven't used much of these (only C++ and Rust out of these), though. But I find that stuff interesting. |
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| ▲ | loeg 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's relatively well known? Certainly not mainstream. |
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| ▲ | firesteelrain 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have only heard about it because of HN. |
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| ▲ | krautsauer 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's been here a few times, maybe 4-6 times in the past year? |
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| ▲ | dismalaf 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's kind of niche but is getting bigger. The Discord server has 10k members, the biggest(?) Twitch programming streamer has been using it recently, JangaFX is big enough to be used by AAA game companies and a few large film studios, and I'm sure there's plenty of users who aren't on the Discord server. If you're comparing it to Rust/C++ you must live in a cave or something. So yes. It's not that big. But it's probably in the top 10 of hyped languages of the current year. There's a bunch of languages from the 60's to 90's on Wikipedia that have probably never had as many users or software shipped as Odin. |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
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| ▲ | jibal 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Odin is extremely well known to every human being who keeps up on programming language development, along with Zig, Nim, D, Jai, V, Crystal, Carbon, and others. "programming topics" isn't relevant. |
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| ▲ | woodruffw 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I keep up with PL development, and I am only vaguely aware of Odin (and same for Jai and V). (But this isn’t the point: lots of programmers know about relatively obscure thing, but that does not itself make them notable. Notability is a well-defined property on Wikipedia.) | | |
| ▲ | jibal 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then you don't. | | |
| ▲ | woodruffw 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Thank you, that’s very persuasive. | |
| ▲ | jibal 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What should be persuasive is a simple logical inference from the statements made to my conclusion. From the article: > If you are terminally online on programming circles, you most likely have heard of Odin, it's so obvious that I don't feel like I have to make a case at all. It has been covered by the streamer Primeagen and it's used commercially by JangaFX, that's pretty notable to me. If you are active in discussions of other systems programming languages like Zig, Nim, Jai, D, V, Hare, C3, etc. then you have heard of Odin. If someone hasn't heard of all of those languages then it's an objective fact that they don't "keep up with PL development". See for instance https://dev.to/dimension-ai/13-languages-are-challenging-c-m... Deletion of this article is an indication of inadequate processes at Wikipedia for determining the notability of certain sorts of subjects. > Notability is a well-defined property on Wikipedia. This is not true ... if it were then there would not be disputes about notability. And simply reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability makes it clear that it is not "a well-defined property". And beyond that, one of the points being discussed is that Wikipedia's criteria for notability have not adapted to the current state of affairs. If Wikipedia did have a rigid "well-defined property", that would be a mistake. As GingerBill is quoted as saying in TFA: > Odin is now being used by dozens of companies, thousands of public projects, and over a million hobbyists. By a sensible rational evaluation, that makes it notable. | | |
| ▲ | Barrin92 an hour ago | parent [-] | | No it's an indication that notoriety in Discord servers isn't a basis for relevance in an encyclopedia. Which is a good choice. A streamer mentioned a language? Wikipedia isn't Twitter. As a reader thank god not everything that has grabbed the attention of social media gets an article. | | |
| ▲ | skotobaza 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Why wouldn't you want to have an article about a programming language that is currently used in production by someone? Are there any downsides to this? | |
| ▲ | jibal an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm talking about a universe of developing systems programming languages, not "the attention of social media" -- that's a silly shallow bad faith reduction. And I see that elsewhere you have written "a archive for whatever trends on social media, which seems to be the articles criterion for the relevance of Odin" -- it doesn't seem that way to anyone who is remotely intellectually honest ... clearly it is ideology about the scope of Wikipedia articles that is work here totally independently of any knowledge of or details about Odin. There is also virtually no attention in these comments to the content of TFA, e.g., > the entire point of this article is to counter the social media persona where dunking by performative disinterest and uncuriosity are a virtue and rewarded by engagement and short-term reward structures. Anyway, the Wikipedia article was deleted -- you won. People are still entitled to think that it was a mistake and to say why. |
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| ▲ | steveklabnik 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I feel like if you’re into programming languages as a hobby, the chances you know of Odin are pretty high. Not everyone can know everything, of course, but my impression is that it punches above average on notability within the niche. |
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| ▲ | bobbytheblkbear 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |