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How employment changes when firms adopt generative AI(ramp.com)
42 points by nreece 4 hours ago | 31 comments
nairboon an hour ago | parent | next [-]

So they studied change in "headcount" (full-time, part-time?), but what are these heads doing? A more interesting metric to study would be changes in wages for a normalized position (e.g. 40h/week, 4w PTO/y). Then you could disentangle the different effects of actually hiring a highly paid worker or replacing a highly paid worker with two new assistants + an AI subscription for less total compensation. AI is just the latest stage of a long trend in automation. If you check the first chart in the recent article of the NY FED [1] you'll see that the labor share has been on a decline for decades, and the trend hints at an accelerating decline. In light of this larger trend, I wouldn't expect that the wages of the "increased headcount" according to ramp's article is growing or holding ground.

[1]: https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2026/06/the-po...

arcticbull 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Relatedly, if we take the conclusion at face value, that companies who adopt AI end up growing headcount way faster than those who don't adopt AI... doesn't that mean those companies now have to pay for more people... and a massive token bill... as compared to their fast-growing peers that didn't? Doesn't this mean they're each doing less with more?

The effect shown in the study is that costs of grew along two dimensions without demonstrating a benefit. Not that there isn't one, just that the study didn't measure one.

I'd love them to index to growth in something other than the number of people in what is otherwise a cost center e.g. revenue. That would help us find out if this is good or, as a cursory read may appear, double-bad.

It would be interesting to compare as you say the median wage change, aggregate wages paid and change in business metrics (ideally revenue and/or profit margins) before and after adoption.

It seems like everyone's trying to have it all ways: AI will lead to more efficiency but also more jobs, more revenue for businesses and more massive bills to pay for the trillion dollars we've put into AI so far. That doesn't... add up. Where's the profit go?

"Help me balance this budget" meme but "oops! all candles."

We've gone from lines of code in a codebase being a liability, and headcount being bloat, to deploy the slop cannons and load up on cannoneers. I suspect we'll learn... something... I just can't quite put my finger on it. Ah well, who wants to go play with Fable-but-coding-tasks-get-routed-to-Opus?

Eufrat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What is the value of saying this when ChatGPT was released in 2022? There’s no way there’s enough data to make any meaningful extrapolation about anything.

claw-el 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

To get onto Hacker News and other social media sites for marketing exposure?

henry2023 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The current narrative is that AI is displacing jobs.

Similar to the current post there’s just not enough data to be conclusive.

whatever1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because people are wasting time and tokens doing irrelevant to the bottom line things.

Cool you spent 2 days and $200 building a react UI for your spreadsheet.

whstl 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Bingo. Bullshit work grows to accommodate productivity gains.

Is it easier to implement a design now? Then let’s redesign every quarter.

Is it easier to refactor the whole codebase? Then let’s rewrite in whatever new hotness.

This is not different from web frameworks 10-20 years ago. Is it easier to make a website using Rails? If so, why did I see an explosion in devs-per-project after I started using Rails? Because of the BS.

Havoc 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems like a questionable correlation. The companies with money to burn on AI are those those that are growing and doing well so ofc their growing headcount too

arcticbull 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

One of the study authors, Ara, tweeted that they control for that by comparing early adopters against firms who haven't yet, and built like-for-like control groups with similar pre-adoption growth trajectories. (This is a rough quote).

thesumofall 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Skeptical of the study approach, but it is an entirely possible scenario if we don’t hit AGI. Many of the non-tech companies are only now starting to invest into AI. For many of them, AI might unlock new business approaches. Eg a company switches to real time pricing. Great, but suddenly you need people swapping price tags. Or you launch a project to replace paper price tags with electronic tags. Those need to be regularly maintained and charged, etc. Oops, our legacy ERP system can’t deal with that. Let’s upgrade that

rebuilder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We can’t really say what this means. Maybe heavy AI use caused companies to perform better and grow. Or maybe the type of company that went big into AI was the type of company that was getting investments and growing because of it?

keyle 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's interesting and goes directly against what everyone complains about in the employment sector.

I'm sure there is a big caveat in there somewhere.

jdw64 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>AI adoption and the associated gains are unevenly distributed.

lmc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Oh yeah, we had to hire a bunch of guys to clean up the slop"

frobisher an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Too soon.

guptadagger 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

is that more or less than regular headcount growth?

delusional 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not entirely clear to me, but I believe this is 10% over the control. The 10% is therefore relative to "regular headcount growth".

shevy-java 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, more skynet leads to more real jobs?

I am confused. Wasn't the initial claim that AI kills all jobs?

I feel the claim right now is not really correct. One needs to do a thorough analysis of the whole job market across different countries, say, over 5 years. Or at the least 3 years but very complete and unbiased either way.

protocolture 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The claim is and always has been that automation increases net jobs. There's never been an automation revolution that worked otherwise.

The counter claim that LLMs were special for some reason has never been supported. And a lot of its proponents have other axes to grind, like UBI, Socialism, Communism etc. It would suit their worldview for this time to be different, and so thats the message they push.

somenameforme 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not entirely sure that's the claim or conclusion. Like they said the companies increasing headcount are also being pumped full of $$$. That's a non-permanent state of affairs because it's heavily fueled by speculation about possible future scenarios which may or may not come to pass.

I think the bigger conclusion is that LLMs are, for now, having a minimal effect on the labor market. And I think this makes sense. In spite of individual claims of 10x productivity boost or whatever, their effect on the bottom line of companies seems to remain quite unclear, at best. On the contrary the token-maxing catastrophe seems to have resulted in companies becoming far more price conscious towards LLM usage.

Shitty-kitty 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I't has been very good as suppressing wages.

Retric 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s not supported by the evidence. Current rates of employment are well below historic levels.

In preindustrial societies nearly everyone was working to support themselves and their families, these days a huge percentage of the population is in education, retirement, prison, disability, etc.

The only way jobs have kept up with automation is when you ignore population growth, but more people naturally increases the required workforce. You inherently need more police, food, etc when you have more people.

jorisw 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> That’s not supported by the evidence. Current rates of employment are well below historic levels.

What evidence?

Wasn’t employment in engineering down before all this could’ve gotten enough widespread traction to actually displace jobs?

protocolture an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>Current rates of employment are well below historic levels.

Ignoring for a second that net jobs and employment rates aren't really the same thing.

>In preindustrial societies nearly everyone was working to support themselves and their families, these days a huge percentage of the population is in education which may be investing in their future but isn’t directly producing anything. Retirement as a percentage of the population similarly exploded etc.

The first thing anyone does in employment statistics is remove non participants. Bringing them back in is weird. If you don't need or want a job its kind of a non sequitur to be lumped in with the employment seeking population. AI doomers aren't suggesting that its going to gainfully retire the population.

>preindustrial societies

Pre industrial societies can be loosely grouped into "People farming to make 3-5 times the food they need" and "city dwellers". Now that a single person can farm for 100s of people, we do have hundreds more city jobs going. We dont have a huge number of out of work farmers sitting around doing nothing. Likewise, Banks employ more people after introducing ATM's than before. Likewise cloud didnt leave IT people lining up at the dole office, but it just moved them from cleaning up on prem messes to cleaning up cloud messes and onprem messes.

nok22kon an hour ago | parent [-]

> Likewise, Banks employ more people after introducing ATM's than before.

that's a common trope, and its both true and false

true: more bank employees after ATM's

false: less bank employees after smartphone banking

bigfatkitten 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

The big 4 Australian banks (Commonwealth Bank, ANZ, National Australia Bank and Westpac) all employ pretty much the same number of people now as they did 25 years ago, but their workforce composition has changed. More software developers, fewer branch staff.

nok22kon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

there never has been a nuclear war, so why do some people worry about it, I dont understand, probably they have some axes to grind

watwut an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> The counter claim that LLMs were special for some reason has never been supported. And a lot of its proponents have other axes to grind, like UBI, Socialism, Communism etc.

No, they are mostly right wing capitalists. LLM is not a left wing project. UBI is something they talked about, but super hard to believe it is anything but a way to shut up critics.

> The claim is and always has been that automation increases net jobs.

That was definitely not the common claim last 4 years.

> There's never been an automation revolution that worked otherwise.

That is not what historical record shows. In the short term, larger unemployment are to be expected. Over long term, it evens out.

camillomiller 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

These studies miss a huge point, which is: working with automation outside of programming is tedious, frustrating, and soul crushing. I see it already with some non technical clients. I have notice a terrible trend of people just offloading everything to agents or prompting even the simplest interaction with other humans. Let me tell you, it’s fucking dire.

consp 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Inside can be as well. Please manually review these 5000 lines of slop I generated while watching YouTube and verify the unreadable readme due to all the bloat and icons is correct with the code.

If that is not soul crushing I would not know what is.

pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The human teams that were there doing CMS translations, or doing image assets, are no more...