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Ferret7446 2 days ago

There's a double layer of irony here, where the people criticizing people of the ignorance of "unintended" consequences of vaccine fear will play defense for the unintended consequence of causing that fear by the extremely aggressive pushing of vaccine policies during covid

0xbadcafebee 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life.

2 million dead Americans later and people still complain that they were asked to get a vaccine to try to save lives. or complain about a shutdown which should have lasted a few months max if people had done what they were supposed to and would have saved millions of lives.

s1artibartfast 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine, and would have been raging if the government hadn't rushed it out. All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life.

I think you are largely right, but I dont think they have any obligation to save anyone else's life.

I think there would have been better uptake amung republicans if it was presented a optional healthcare choice or suggestion.

malcolmgreaves a day ago | parent | next [-]

> I dont think they have any obligation to save anyone else's life.

That’s the problem with republicans. They reject basic tenets of a society.

You do have a responsibility to do the absolute minimum to not harm other people.

s1artibartfast 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, they just see it the other way. That people should accepted a chance of harm when they participate in society.

Any accommodation beyond that is them doing a favor, not an obligation.

This is why they get so reactionary when compelled.

Arodex 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>I think there would have been better uptake amung republicans if it was presented a optional healthcare choice or suggestion.

Cut to Republicans outraged reaction to Michelle Obama fitness initiatives...

Terr_ a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> I dont think they have any obligation to save anyone else's life.

I reject this framing, the person here is not a passive observer in the first place, they are a participant with obligations.

Consider a pet dog: You aren't merely responsible if it bites someone after-the-fact, you also have a proactive obligation for a reasonable level of control and monitoring, so that your erratic property doesn't harm another person in the first place. That might mean blocking off where it can go with doors and fences, a muzzle, a leash in public, certified obedience training, etc.

Your body is like that dog: Both are biological property which can erratically move to harm others without your permission. In this case, the risk is it will start spewing tiny bioweapons at other people. As the owner, you again have some obligation to exert reasonable control and supervision over your property, whether that's quarantine, vaccines, masks, home tests, etc.

____

On the heels of the "if Ebola" thought-experiment, let's try another: Imagine we somehow had forensic knowledge of how every individual SARS-COV-2 victim got sick and exactly how plus a frictionless legal system for lawsuits to recover damages from lost-work, medical bills, or deaths.

Simply by having awareness and justice, a lot of people would be singing a very different tune. If Mr. "I'm too cool for masks" infects several strangers and causes them to miss days of wages, it'll actually show up as a $5,000 bill.

s1artibartfast 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, they just see it the other way. That people should accepted a chance of harm when they participate in society. Any accommodation beyond that is them doing a favor, not an obligation.

This is why they get so reactionary when compelled.

I think your liability example illustrates this. They wouldn't argue that the other person knew and accepted the risks when hanging out with Mr Cool and want that to be the social expectation.

hammock 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If it was Ebola instead of COVID-19, 1000% guaranteed that all those antivaxxers would have been banging down the doors to get a vaccine

Sadly, no. There is a theory that Ebola cases are really just arsenic poisoning from the mines in the area. That’s the kind of narrative that would take hold realistically.

I would also point out that prior to Bidens election it was mostly Democrats who were saying they weren’t going to take the vaccine when it came out, that it would be rushed and have something wrong with it.

jghn 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> it was mostly Democrats who were saying they weren’t going to take the vaccine

Sadly, no. I live in one of the bluest corners of the US. A constant discussion was when the jab would come available so that we could get it. I knew no one who didn't want it.

Terr_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> prior to Bidens election it was mostly Democrats who were saying they weren’t going to take the vaccine

Nope, look at Figure 10 in this poll [0]. Asked about a hypothetical vaccine in the next ~2 months before the election was held, the answer "Yes, would want to get vaccinated" was 50% for Democrats and only 36% for Republicans.

Democrats may have become more confident after the election--for damn good reasons--but there was no flip or reversal.

[0] https://www.kff.org/health-information-trust/kff-health-trac...

hammock a day ago | parent [-]

I appreciate the data and am prepared to concede the point. It seems like a mixed result though, as quite a bit of sentiment did flip after the election. From your study:

“85% of Democrats say they are worried the FDA will rush to approve a vaccine, while fewer Republicans (35%) express this level of concern. Notably, women are more likely than men to say they are worried the FDA will rush to approve a vaccine (70% vs. 55%).”

mrguyorama a day ago | parent [-]

Lots of Democrats were worried that Trump's FDA would do something stupid or bad around the vaccine, but those democrats largely changed their mind when Trump's FDA presented good evidence of the vaccines efficacy and safety.

They responded to evidence by changing the way they view the world. Like you are supposed to.

Meanwhile, Republicans while Trump was in the whitehouse were not very concerned that the vaccine would be rushed or unsafe, and as soon as Biden is in the whitehouse instead, are suddenly terrified of the vaccine.

hammock a day ago | parent [-]

What do those same democrats think about Trump’s HHS/FDA now, and why is it so different?

lmm 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> All their antivax outrage was because they didn't think they personally were going to die from COVID, and didn't want to help save anyone else's life.

Suppose you're right. They're still entitled to their views, they're entitled to honesty from their government, and frankly I'd say the government should not be trying to coerce people into taking an officially-experimental vaccine by the back door any more than they should be directly forcing people to do so.

> 2 million dead Americans later

Maybe. Depends very much on who's doing the calculations.

> complain about a shutdown which should have lasted a few months max if people had done what they were supposed to

Bullshit. Countries with much higher social compliance saw the same endless lockdowns.

jghn 2 days ago | parent [-]

> taking an officially-experimental vaccine by the back door

Two things.

1) mRNA technology was not experimental

2) I don't know about you but I got my shot in the shoulder, not the back door

lmm 2 days ago | parent [-]

> 1) mRNA technology was not experimental

Perhaps, but the specific vaccines were.

> 2) I don't know about you but I got my shot in the shoulder, not the back door

As I'm sure you understood, I was talking about coercion by the back door - the whole "we're not going to force individuals to vaccinate, but we're going to force restaurants and gyms to require vaccination" approach. (And don't try to say it was an objective public health measure - if that was the case they would've made natural immunity as acceptable as vaccination)

Arodex 2 days ago | parent [-]

>And don't try to say it was an objective public health measure - if that was the case they would've made natural immunity as acceptable as vaccination)

It was an objective public health measure, because it is well-known from actual examples that opening such option would lead people to try to get infected instead of being vaccinated, breeding even more variants and hospital saturation.

Note also that "previous contamination" has never been an acceptable derogation in any public health system for any of the compulsory vaccinations.

lmm a day ago | parent [-]

> It was an objective public health measure, because it is well-known from actual examples that opening such option would lead people to try to get infected instead of being vaccinated, breeding even more variants and hospital saturation.

Bullshit.

> Note also that "previous contamination" has never been an acceptable derogation in any public health system for any of the compulsory vaccinations.

Nonsense. Literally the first example I looked up was the CDC's measles vaccination advice https://www.cdc.gov/measles/hcp/vaccine-considerations/index... : laboratory confirmation of immunity or of the disease is considered presumptive evidence of immunity in exactly the same way that a vaccination record is.

wmeredith 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'll bite. The Covid vaccines were extremely effective. This information brought to us by a data leak of the report blocked by the US government...

"NEW YORK (AP) — A study on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness has finally been published after being blocked from a government health journal.

The vaccine was found to be about 55% effective against COVID-19-associated hospitalizations, and reduced COVID-19-related trips to emergency departments and urgent care clinics by 50%, according to the study published Tuesday by JAMA Network Open."

https://apnews.com/article/cdc-covid-vaccine-effective-study...

Terr_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I dare a grammarian to take the above-sentence and diagram it out. No, I'm not "feigning surprise", I am legitimately struggling to figure out exactly who's being blamed for what.

Terr_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

Some minutes later, and this is my best guess in the form of original with code comments. I got to the end and then backfilled the group names.

    There's a double layer of irony here,        # There is something wrong and hypocritical.
                                                 #
    where the people                             # People who thought vaccines were good
    criticizing people                           # criticized anti-vaxxers,
    of the ignorance                             # saying the anti-vaxxers didn't realize
    of "unintended" consequences                 # the damage they would cause
    of vaccine fear                              # by scaring everyone away from proper treatment.
                                                 #
    will play defense                            # Those people give excuses
    for the unintended consequence               # for the problem they actually created
    of causing that fear                         # by MAKING the anti-vaxxers afraid in the first place
    by the extremely aggressive pushing          # since they tried too hard
    of vaccine policies during covid.            # to get everyone vaccinated to stop the virus.
So, unless I've taken a wrong turn somewhere... *sigh* Helllll no. That's trying to disclaim all responsibility from the group of people who made the mistake.

Compare to: "Well, the car I was driving is wrecked, and it's all your fault! You should have known that I don't like being told what do to, so by telling me to slow down you forced me to accelerate into that barrier to prove that you aren't the boss of me. We could have avoided this whole mess if you'd simply babied my special needs and irrationalities like an adult."

fhdkweig a day ago | parent [-]

> Compare to: "Well, the car I was driving is wrecked, and it's all your fault! You should have known that I don't like being told what do to, so by telling me to slow down you forced me to accelerate into that barrier to prove that you aren't the boss of me. We could have avoided this whole mess if you'd simply babied my special needs and irrationalities like an adult."

This is also known as "Look what you made me do."

Terr_ a day ago | parent [-]

Especially over the last few years, I've become worried that a certain sizeable minority exists who will read the phrase and not see any problem.

jmye 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Anyone who “fears” vaccines because the government said they were a good idea (with provable statistics instead of whatever nonsense you read on Facebook) is a fucking doorknob. Full stop.

Some of you need to realize that writing some React pages doesn’t actually make you a polymath.

hammock 2 days ago | parent [-]

[dead]