| ▲ | alistairSH 13 hours ago |
| Just built a "hatchback" Slate with what I guess will be common options (speakers, wheel upgrade, spare wheel carrier, and a few other odds and ends) and it came to $35k. So, still pretty inexpensive, but also getting close to some existing EV sedans that are known entities and have pretty decent interiors. So, I'm not totally sold on these, but not not sold either. Need to see one in person, I think. |
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| ▲ | aidenn0 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Compared to gas cars: Kia K4 hatchback is $26k with a lot more creature-comforts. Gets 34mpg, so if $6/gal gas is here to stay that's $0.17 per mile of fuel costs. My EV gets almost exactly 4miles/kW average and I pay $0.21 per kW so that's about $0.05 per mile. So $0.12 per mile saved in fuel costs implies about 80k miles for break-even. This excludes costs of servicing, which should be higher on the gas car. [edit typo'd an extra 0 it's 80k miles for break-even] [edit2] After looking up my energy bill I pay $0.27 so it's between 10 and 11 cents per mile saved. Break-even is still under 100k miles. |
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| ▲ | beaviskhan 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you've got an extra zero in there somewhere $35k - $26k = $9k $9k / $0.12/mile savings ~= 75,000 miles breakeven | | |
| ▲ | mgrandl 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | And that is completely ignoring maintenance cost which tends to be a lot cheaper on EVs. | | |
| ▲ | IshKebab 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Somewhat cheaper anyway (30% according to https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/petrol-vs-electric-servicing-... ), but I wouldn't be surprised if that is wiped out by the increased insurance costs. I definitely wouldn't buy an EV based on lower service costs. | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's based on the manufacturer's "lets not upset our dealers" maintenance schedule and is completely unnecessary. In reality you can probably bring your EV to the dealer once every 4 years or so. On that schedule you should: - check the brake fluid for water
- change the cabin air filter
- change the gearbox oil
- check/change the battery coolant If you're going in more frequent than that you're getting a very expensive windshield wiper replacement. The real kicker is going to be repair costs. An EV has about 10% of the moving parts of an ICE car, so in theory repairs should be much less frequent. But if the ICE is a Toyota and the EV is a Tesla, YMMV. You'll probably have to replace the battery at around 250,000 miles but at that point the car is worth pretty much scrap value anyways. | | |
| ▲ | Marsymars 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | FWIW, my 10+ year spreadsheet of the maintenance costs on my last ICE lined up pretty well with that - about 1/3 of the costs were ICE-specific issues, 2/3 were for parts that would have been common to an EV. > In reality you can probably bring your EV to the dealer once every 4 years or so. Not really, I need twice-yearly seasonal tire changes/rotations. | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 4 years for replacing the cabin air-filter? Do you live somewhere with no pollen or smoke? I replace mine annually, but it's easy enough to do myself (right behind the glovebox, needs zero tools) |
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| ▲ | jerlam 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | California (and many other states) also charges you an additional annual EV registration fee of $121 in lieu of gas taxes. There was some noise earlier this year about a federal EV tax too. | | |
| ▲ | bombcar 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I wish they'd just tax the tires. Bigger vehicles, more tires, more wear. |
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| ▲ | fouc 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you meant 80k not 800k, $0.12 * 80,000 = $9,600 | |
| ▲ | superxpro12 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | $.21/kw seems high for home charging... im at $.12, before the extra savings that gets me closer to $.10 | | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | $0.21 was from memory, so I pulled up my bill and it was actually low: Southern California Edison on the time-of-use plan, charging during "Super off peak." Note that nowhere on the bill do they show one number for how much you pay per kWh. These numbers will change next month as we go from "Winter" to "Summer" Delivery charges: $0.17664 CCA Cost responsibility surcharge: $0.02007 Nonbypassable charges: $0.00644 + $0.00591 Fixed recovery charge: $0.00619 Generation charge: $0.05958 Unless I typoed something again (oops 800k) that works out to $0.27 for the cheapest I can pay in winter. I compared last fall and this was by far the cheapest plan offered to me for overnight charging. | |
| ▲ | neogodless 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Varies widely by state and other factors. I'm at around $0.18 for 1kWh when you look at the overall bill including generation, supply, and all other fees. (My car averages 3.3 miles / kWh, so ~$0.055 / mile assuming 100% charge efficiency... I'm using a 120V outlet so it's probably 75-80% charge efficiency, pushing the cost to ~$0.068 / mile.) | | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is using a 120V charger really only 80% charge efficiency? That would add another penny or two per mile to my cost. | | |
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| ▲ | toast0 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was at $0.12 3 years ago, but rates have jumped (and there's two more years of planned rate increases coming up) | |
| ▲ | culopatin 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And yet half what they charge in some areas of California |
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| ▲ | p1mrx 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > wheel upgrade At the same size (17"), going from steel to alloy improves performance but reduces durability. Larger wheels (20") are generally a downgrade for performance and ride quality. Engineering Explained has a video on this topic: NYvKxsYFqO8 |
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| ▲ | sokoloff 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Downgrade in ride quality for sure, but that’s the first I’ve heard of it being a performance downgrade. Will check out the video later to learn more. | | |
| ▲ | jerlam 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe the smaller wheels accelerate better because they are lighter, but corner worse. The smaller wheels also get better efficiency. | |
| ▲ | therealdrag0 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe just due to lift. Thinner wheels and lower car is better aerodynamics |
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| ▲ | bruce343434 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | tldw: - wider wheels are marginally less efficient but almost negligible - rims with larger diameter have larger air resistance. Probably because the rim patterns intersects the air in weird ways but it's not explained. Tire walls are relatively smooth, so tires with higher aspect are way more aero-efficient despite having more marginally lower rolling resistance. | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, I kept 17", but went to alloy (I think). |
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| ▲ | zamadatix 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm simultaneously not interested in an electric truck & amazed the price is still reasonable if you want to turn it the truck into a hatchback instead. The range is also meh. Same conclusion: interesting, but not necessarily interested. Hope they go places though. |
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| ▲ | alistairSH 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I see lots of tradesmen in Ford Mavericks or Transit Connects. The Slate could work well for some of them - basic truck model, with the ladder rack for long stuff (like ladders or pieces of wood). Saves them some money up front, and gas and maintenance (in theory). | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes and no. I'd think residential plumber or HVAC service tech can easily drive more than the stated range just going from job to job during a day. They're going to want to be sure that they don't have to stop to charge between jobs; time is money for those guys, and especially if the fast charging infrastructure is not well built out in their area it could be a showstopper. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | A fast charge over lunch would be acceptable. However there are not near enough fast chargers. Every fast food place needs to have 1/2 of their parking spots equipped with a faster charger (1/4 if there is a way to limit them to people charging) | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah this is another concern I have. When I have time to fast-charge, it's likely the same time that a lot of other people want to fast-charge, such as during lunch. So you'd have to overbuild fast-chargers to meet peak demand. Gas stations have this problem too but it's not as bad, because filling up a fuel tank takes maybe 5 minutes not 20-30. |
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| ▲ | officeplant 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | City Vans have completely died in America for the last few years until the Promaster City's recent resurrection. Something like this is a dire need for in city tradesmen in the US. My boss's have been asking me how life is with my Ford E-Transit, but it doesn't have enough range for most of our site technicians which end up driving 200-300 miles a day. | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I hear the Kia PV5 is pretty much sold-out world-wide and delivery is now 2027 in most markets. A reasonably priced cargo van with decent range was a large untapped market for far too long. | | |
| ▲ | officeplant 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I really hope it gets a US market release. So far only Ford (e-transit) and VW (id.BUZZ) have attempted EV vans in the US and they both cost extreme amounts of money new. I bought an E-Transit anyway to setup as a Home/Office on wheels. Really hoping that in the future we see aftermarket long range batteries for these first two decades of mass market EV's being produced. |
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| ▲ | zamadatix 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ford Maverick is a hybrid for about the same price and I could definitely lean more easily towards that kind combo at the moment. The Transit Connect is discontinued in North America and was only ever a plug in hybrid here (outside a 500 unit collaboration in the early 2010s) but maybe one of the newer electric variants of the Transit lines will make its way over some time (e.g. looks like the Ford E-Tourneo Courier is an all electric in Europe). |
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| ▲ | cammil 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Presumably you could reconfigure it easily later. Which seems like a plus |
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| ▲ | alistairSH 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, you could buy a basic one and add the rear seats and roof later. But, is that likely? Most people buy cars on credit and won't have $10k cash to spend on those bits later. I guess they could put it on Visa, but that's a terrible financial choice. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's possible they will offer financing for that. From a business strategy perspective it would be almost unimaginable that they wouldn't. | |
| ▲ | bitexploder 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If these become popular it should be reasonable to expect the aftermarket to provide less expensive options. These are clearly where Slate's margin will live right now. |
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| ▲ | roysting 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > still pretty inexpensive Can we stop being so out of touch and/or deluding ourselves to believe $35k is “pretty inexpensive” for people not living in a bubble; whether that is the Americas bubble or the tech bubble within the bubble or the urban bubble within that; let alone for a tiny two seater electric truck that has a 200 mile range. The 45th percentile, i.e., the bottom 90% have a median income of roughly $40,000. $35,000 for a enclosed covered or even hatchback type mini SUV is not reasonable and you know very well when they come out with that, it’s going to be at least $40,000. None of that is inexpensive or even pretty inexpensive. That’s just rationalization and coping, trying to convince ourselves and others of things that are incongruent. “Pretty inexpensive” would be an enclosed bed version that cost $22,000 maybe. For additional context; the industry standard measure of income to cost ratio has risen from 9.3 weeks of household income gross pay for a baseline vehicle, i.e., civic, in 1973 to, 16.5 weeks of gross pay in 2024; and that’s based on the fraudulent official inflation numbers. Yet more context, a civic can seat 5 people and still has a range of 450 miles on a tank of gasoline that you can find all over the place, even in far off rural places OSD puppy can carry gasoline with you if need be. There is no sense in rationalizing and deluding ourselves about the real limitations that still exists that are real and are why adoption is not matching imaginations. |
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| ▲ | bluGill 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most people don't buy new cars, they buy used cars. Particularly in the bottom 45%, they know they can't afford a new car - they might look at them but they know they know it is a dream (or the car they will buy in 5 years). Car makers know they can only charge this price for a new car because in 3 years it will still have a lot of value left - most new car buyers never pay the full price: they only pay the difference between the cost and the value in 3 years (plus interest). | | |
| ▲ | WillAdams 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | Time was, CAFE forced Detroit to build affordable cars which folks could buy new --- rather miss that --- that said, I'm never going to buy an all-electronic vehicle w/ multiple screens (still annoyed about the radio on my current vehicle going out) GPS tracking and built-in monitoring by way of a backup camera and so forth. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Even at the height of that, most people were buying used cars. However the cheap CAFE cars did bring in a few people who would be on the fence of affording a new car. Those cheap cars also got people who could afford a bigger car, but the price was compelling anyway. |
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| ▲ | bryanlarsen 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are lots of vehicles available for $22K. On the used market. Buying new is a privilege. A $35K vehicle will reach $22K on the used market a lot faster than a $60K vehicle will. | | |
| ▲ | unregistereddev 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are new hybrids available for $30k. There are new vehicles available for $22k. There are reasonable used vehicles available for $10k. The problem with the Slate isn't that cheaper vehicles exist. The problem with the Slate is that you can buy nicer, better equipped vehicles for the same price. | | |
| ▲ | jwx48 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | ...that use gasoline, and come from a dealership that is actively hostile. I'd rather take my chances on the Slate to replace my 13 year old car. |
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| ▲ | unregistereddev 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I completely agree. A base Prius is $30k. A base Kia Niro is $27k. Those are hybrids and not EV's, but 50+mpg is not bad. Those also come with power windows and many other features and creature comforts that the Slate doesn't. $35k is not outrageous for a new car, but the Slate is supposed to be affordable basic transportation. Slate is selling barebones, stripped down basic transportation for the price of a middle class family car. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | On the flip side, if you want a car that doesn't try to track you and record you, and doesn't upsell you on a subscription for seatwarmers, and doesn't use gas, Slate looks pretty attractive. | | |
| ▲ | WillAdams 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd be interested in what they could do for a competitor to my Geo Metro/Chevy Aveo, esp. w/ a convertible option. |
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| ▲ | alistairSH 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A new Honda Civic is $25k, so the same as the Slate. The average new car price in the US is $50k, so double the Slate base price and still significantly more than the upgraded Slate I built. As far as I can tell, the US market has only one sub-$20k car - the base Nissan Versa. | | |
| ▲ | officeplant 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | The versa is dead now. The Hyundai Venue is now the cheapest base model vehicle in America at nearly $22k. |
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| ▲ | aidenn0 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In '73 a Chevy Nova just under $2500, which CPI is just under $20k. Median household income was around $12k $25k is about right for a cheap new car today (you can get a few base models for less than that, but good luck finding one). Median household income is around $83k. So a cheap new car cost went up by 10x but income only went up by less than 5x. Inflation implies it should cost 8x as much, but it costs 10x as much. Of course the Chevy Nova didn't have ABS, airbags, a touch screen, an automatic transmission, power steering, or retractable seat belts. Car companies could make models without some of these (though most are required by law; can't even have a car without a screen since RVC is mandated). But now they would be competing with used cars that have most, if not all, of these things and cost less. | |
| ▲ | vel0city 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > tank of gasoline that you can find all over the place I can find electricity in far more places than I can gasoline. It even comes out of my walls. Do you have gasoline piping throughout your home? | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I can find 1000 watts of electric anyplace. However to get any reasonable range from that means my car has to sit there 3-4 days! This works for me because I only make the long trips on weekends (I ride my bike to work when the weather allows). For practical EV purposes there is not electric everywhere. If there isn't enough at home chargers are hard to find. Sure they are all over - but they are not advertised and not at every exit: you need an app to find them. Using an app is not safe when you are driving so you better have someone else with you to figure out how to find them or plan ahead. | | |
| ▲ | vablings 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is just fundamentally not true, literally every single home in the USA is capable of level 2 charging, the question is just do they have a 240v outlet somewhere nearby to a garage or parking spot. Using apps like ABRP you can easily schedule your drip to have the optimal stops for route planning based on your battery technology, if you are doing a drive long enough to have multiple stops that should be part of your travel planning even with a gas car alongside a pre-trip check. You can easily circumnavigate the entire USA with an EV that supports NACS! | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > every single home in the USA is capable of level 2 charging Agreed > the question is just do they have a 240v outlet somewhere nearby to a garage or parking spot. They almost never do. This is the key thing you are not understanding about my reply. We can get level 2 anywhere, but most of the time it means you have to have an electrician. > Using apps like ABRP That is my objection. When I drive a gas car don't need an app. I drive until my gauge gets "low" and then find the next gas station - I can be assured that almost anywhere I will make it to a gas station if I start looking when the gauge reaches 1/8 (though I refuse to let it go below 1/4 for safety reasons). No app needed for gas, there are big signs everywhere that alert me where I can fill up. Last road trip I looked for those signs wondering if I could have used the EV and there wasn't 1 in 300 miles: then I pulled up the app, and there were plenty - but none where in places you could see from the main road and none advertised (they were also a lot less common than gas stations) | | |
| ▲ | vablings 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They almost never do. This is the key thing you are not understanding about my reply. We can get level 2 anywhere, but most of the time it means you have to have an electrician. In my personal experience most, homes have a dryer outlet in the washroom connected to the garage at least in TX. It's no bother running a cable from the washroom to the garage. > That is my objection. When I drive a gas car don't need an app Any time I am making a long drive I always use a GPS app such as Waze or Apple Maps, I don't know what's on the road ahead traffic, accidents and closures the app will re-route me appropriately and optimally. If you made a drive so regularly you felt like you didn't need an app then you would already know on that route where charging stations are. I do agree they are less common than gas stations because of a few reasons but that's set to change with time and market adoption. | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Tell me about this "garage" it sounds magical. ;) For me, installing a 240V outlet for charging would entail... Running a new circuit from the breaker box (back wall of basement) to the front facade (40' forward, 1 level up) with whatever drywall patching/paint comes with that. That gets the outlet. But, I don't have a driveway, so I'd need to trench my front yard and the public sidewalk in front of my house, so I can pull the charge line through to the front edge of the curbing adjacent to my parking space. I figure all-in, that's a $10k buy-in that only serves one of my two cars, so I'm stuck rotating cars every few days (not a big deal, just not ideal). Only one of my parking spaces is assigned - the other is "guest parking" open to anybody. And I fully realize my situation might not be the norm, but it's not far off for many TH or condo residents. | |
| ▲ | bluGill 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | TX is the key. Where I live nobody would put a washroom in an unheated space - the pipes would freeze and break. Thus no easy to get at dryer outlet. I'm not sure how far north things change, but my impression is not very. Rest areas in TX often don't put doors on the restrooms (thus heat is not possible), but OK does - implying that it gets cold enough to need them (but this was also very different ages of building so not a fair comparison) I use a GPS when I don't know the route, but I've been to parents in a different state several times - I don't need a GPS interrupting my music to get there. I agree EV chargers are being installed and will be installed more and more. | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | FWIW, placing a climate-controlled laundry room or mud room between the house and the garage is pretty common here in VA. It might not have the dryer (washer/dryer have mostly moved upstairs to bedroom level for new builds), but there's a good chance it won't be hard to pull that 240 circuit into the garage. That's assuming you have a garage and the breaker box isn't already in it, which is also common. Of course, I have neither, so installing a car charger would be expensive. Thus my continued use of ICE vehicles. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I do have my laundry room right next to the garage. However, I would not consider it a useful place to plug in a car, except maybe as an extreme emergency. It requires moving the dryer out of the way since the outlet is near the floor behind it. While this is certainly possible to do, it's not exactly easy. Also, your typical dryer plug is built to remain plugged in for years on end and so even if you would try this, it will wear out the socket really quick. | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can get a "Dryer Buddy" or similar transfer switch and plug both the car and dryer into it. | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | kevin_thibedeau 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It isn't legal to have multiple receptacles on 20A+ circuits. New work has to connect to a panel directly. |
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| ▲ | bryanlarsen 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Batteries are good at averaging out usage. Anybody who averages under 40 miles a day can do almost all of their charging overnight on a 120V outlet. As long as most nights you charge more than you use eventually it hits a full charge and is ready for your next long trip. |
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| ▲ | baby_souffle 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lots of people only have street parking or their apartment complex has detached parking where they can't realistically charge overnight. But otherwise... Yeah, That's absolutely amazing to wake up every morning to a full tank/charge | | |
| ▲ | aidenn0 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | My mom has an EV, and when my parents bought their condo they got a promise in writing that they could install a charger at their parking spot. Condo board reneged on that agreement and so she's selling her EV to buy a hybrid. If gas prices return to pre-Iran-war it will be cheaper than paying to use an L3 charger, and even if they don't it will be far more convenient. | | |
| ▲ | baby_souffle 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry to hear that the HOA is earning their reputation :(. > If gas prices return to pre-Iran-war it will be cheaper than paying to use an L3 charger, and even if they don't it will be far more convenient. Yeah, that's Toyota's main argument for not diving head-first into EVs. Yes, merging the two technologies means you have the complexity of both... but after a decade+ of experience, they've gotten it down to be pretty reliable. For a lot of people, that's still the best choice assuming you don't mind the budget for wear-items / oil changes ... etc. When my current econobox is _done_, I will probably go straight to EV just so I don't have wear-items to deal with and because I either drive a few hundred miles per week or fly. I don't need to account for family road trips or anything else that make the ubiquitous fuel station network worth it. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > merging the two technologies means you have the complexity of both I (and many others) would actually argue many common hybrid drivetrains are actually simpler than many ICE-only drivetrains. Things like transmissions and complicated AWD setups are incredibly complex. Planetary gear sets and using an electric motor for the rear axle to add AWD can make things vastly simpler mechanically than a regular pure-ICE. You need a computer to get it to all play nice, but in terms of moving parts and things rubbing it can be a lot simpler. |
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| ▲ | win311fwg 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Can we stop being so out of touch and/or deluding ourselves to believe $35k is “pretty inexpensive” [...] let alone for a tiny two seater electric truck that has a 200 mile range. It suppose is "pretty inexpensive" compared to other new trucks you can buy right now. However, my much more equipped, full size truck cost less, inflation adjusted even, than this thing when it was new. Today's truck market baffles me. |
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| ▲ | cherry_tree 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| There isn’t a hatchback option. Did you mean fastback? |
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