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crote 2 hours ago

Well yeah, because it requires re-engineering the entire built environment!

Heat waves only became a serious problem in Europe in the last decade. The vast majority of buildings predate the need for air conditioning by several decades - and in plenty of cases by several centuries. The buildings are designed around being livable in a pre-climate-catastrophe climate without needing air conditioning - which is perfectly achievable if you aren't stupid enough to build a city in the middle of a desert.

Adapting all those buildings and streets will take time. Blindly putting AC everywhere and forcing everyone to drive from building to building in an ACed car isn't going to work, that kind of wasteful behavior is how we got into this situation in the first place. You need to redesign the heat management, and you need to start with things like mandating shades to prevent heat from entering buildings in the first place, and planting trees to avoid the heat island effect.

AC will indeed be needed to deal with the final heat peak when outside night temperature is in excess of 30C, but it isn't the one-size-fits-all solution for every heat-related problem it might seem at first glance. If your AC needs to run for more than a few days per year, you've seriously screwed up.

PeterStuer 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

We have had heatwaves in Europe forever. The thing is people were used to adapting to them with shades and night/morning ventilation, and shifting their activities out of the hottest part of the day.

This somehow seems to be beyond today's population and society. How dare this weather impact my schedule!

tgsovlerkhgsel 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do you suggest to keep buildings livable during the decades that it takes to (as you suggest) essentially rebuild cities?

CalRobert an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even now planners are forcing people to build horrible ovens that make no accounting for heat. The planners in Ireland laughed when I talked about over heating in our self built house due to lack of eaves.

asdff 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

People don't value design that cools. Most all the spanish style houses you see in California, if you go back to photos from when they were built in the 1920s they all had awnings over all the windows. Those awnings are basically extinct now. Some people are even painting their buildings dark colors. They will chop down shade trees too in a quest for "natural light" aka heat they are now mitigating with a noisy central AC the whole neighborhood gets to listen to now. No one understands cross breeze and opening windows either. Just run up the AC.

CalRobert 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

True, though the places I lived in California (Sacramento, San Luis Obispo in particular) all had eaves. Covered patios were common too.

zarzavat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An AC unit essentially requires just a small hole in the wall and a bracket to hold the compressor unit. Europeans have walls don't they? I'm European and I have a wall that could host an AC unit. The barrier is regulatory not engineering.

crote an hour ago | parent | next [-]

By all means install an AC unit to deal with the worst of it. Just install shades as well when you've got the scaffolding out so you can install a smaller, cheaper, and less energy-hungry one.

Unfortunately I personally live in a highrise, and in a rental unit, so that "small hole and a bracket" definitely isn't an option for everyone.

asdff 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

If you can open a window at all you can run a portable AC unit. Even just 3-4 inches is enough.

ajmurmann an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Is this actually illegal in many places? I proposed this to my parents in Germany and they seemed to be under the impression that they could install one but their village is getting a village-wide heat pump system this fall that can also cool in summer, so they are just sitting this summer out as is.

crote an hour ago | parent [-]

I highly doubt there are many (if any) places with "installing any kind of AC is illegal" laws.

On the other hand, there are plenty of noise-related laws preventing you from installing an AC loud enough to be a nuisance for your neighbors. But that's solved by getting one with proper sound isolation, or placing it in such a way that the noise doesn't travel to the neighboring properties.

Similarly, you aren't allowed to install an AC on the facade of a protected historical building. But that can be solved by installing it on the rear of the building (where it is invisible), or by placing the unit itself indoors and using hidden air vents.

There's also the issue of landlords and HoAs banning you from making modifications, but that's not really a matter of legality.

CalRobert 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Grumpy old German and Dutch boomers whine if the AC isn’t literally inaudible. Modern ones are very quiet but will still get complaints.

ianm218 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is completely ridiculous you just need to let people use AC properly and it will solve most of the problem with people dying. That doesn’t mean you need to go from place to place in AC or never be out of AC, but every person in southern Europe should have an AC unit in their bedroom and deaths will go down substantially.

Another thing that would help is if Europe stopped being so averse to new construction so that people could build new buildings with central AC that matches the current reality of its climate and demographics, rather than the climate and demographics of last millennium.

crote 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you just need to let people use AC properly (..) every person in southern Europe should have an AC unit in their bedroom and deaths will go down substantially.

Yes, exactly: install AC where it truly helps and where it is truly needed. That's the point I was trying to make. Most of the rest is solved far more efficient by things like installing shades. In other words: don't go all-out on giant whole-home AC without first stopping the huge inflow of new heat.

> if Europe stopped being so averse to new construction

We're not, there's plenty of new construction over in Europe.

The difference is that European buildings are built to last, so structurally there's no need to tear them down after a couple of decades. They are perfectly usable for another half-century after a minor renovation (including retrofitting AC!), so why destroy a charming historic district for absolutely no reason?

That doesn't mean buildings are never torn down, of course. Right now a lot of post-WWII rental units are being replaced by new construction, as they are architecturally nothing special and renovating them to modern standards is simply way more expensive than replacing them entirely.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I get rage when I hear those "5 clever tips to stay cool without A/C".

Many buildings already have shades, but please tell me more how those shades and "properly ventilating during the night" (aka not getting sleep half the night due to outside noise) will keep my apartment at a livable temperature when the air temperature outside never drops below 23 degrees for more than an hour.

You can't effectively remove the heat that has pooled in the apartment with a 2-3 degree temperature difference, let alone in the few hours where you actually have that difference.

So because of thinking like the one in your post, we can't have real AC's (because to "protect the environment" we'd first need to install every other system that doesn't help then prove that with a mountain of paperwork), so my only option is to open the well-insulated window so I can stick the coolant hose of a portable unit through it.

I think the "properly installed AC bad" mentality will only change once the entire population of renters has those inefficient portable units (that are de facto impossible to regulate) and even the anti-AC group realizes that encouraging "real" ACs is much better than the workarounds that the status quo forces.

MrDresden an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> "Another thing that would help is if Europe..."

Europe is a continent with a lot of different countries, all with different laws and regulations. Even the ones who are in the European Union have different rules and regulations.

So please realize that any blanket statements about Europe work as well as making one about the Americas (ie North/South).

nikanj an hour ago | parent [-]

Europeans say ”Americans xxx while the French yyy” all the time. Member states should be compared to member states, or the US to the EU.

leononame 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

A US state is not a country. I get that there is a lot of federalism in the US and that states often have different laws and regulations, but the same is true for European countries. You can compare the US to Germany, or Sourh Carolina to Bavaria, by your own logic.

quotemstr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Blindly putting AC everywhere

... actually works just fine. How do you think mass AC adoption in the US happened? Window units work just fine. Fancy splits and central ducting can come later.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

crote 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Look at the population graph of a city like Las Vegas. It basically didn't exist before the invention of AC.

Window units don't work in most of Europe because our windows aren't compatible with them. If they were, I would have one.

And again, it doesn't solve the core cause. If you want to cool down your home, your first step should be to stop heat from entering. If you can get the same result from €900 of shades and €100 of AC as from €1000 of AC, you'd have to be stupid to go for an energy-guzzling AC-only approach.

ajmurmann an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I was under the same impression about window units till recently as well. However, I learned that there are units with hoses and foam seals that just require to put the window on tilt and then the hose goes out at the top and the surrounding area is sealed with the foam. Not as good as a minisplit but it works and is DIY.

physicsguy an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This might sound ridiculous to you but in the U.K. we generally don’t have tilting windows. They are really common in Germany though.

ajmurmann an hour ago | parent [-]

So you don't have sliding windows but also not tilting windows? They can only swing open?

physicsguy 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Traditionally everyone had sash windows ("sliding windows") or casement windows ("swing open") made from wood. Nowadays sash windows are very expensive so almost everyone has casement windows, or even casement windows that look like sash windows, both constructed from UPVC. It's only in historic buildings people typically still install sash windows. I had to do that in my house because of it being a "conservation area" and it cost £14k for four timber double glazed sash windows! There are some UPVC sash windows now but they're pretty uncommon still.

asdff 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

I actually have a casement AC window unit. Not sure if this is the same dimensions as a UK casement window. It is as if you took a window AC unit and made it vertical orientation. My window still slides up and blocks the remaining void, but I imagine it would work just fine if it swung out and you built a plexiglass or plywood cover. Maybe you can also unscrew the swinging window and put it away in a closet.

The AC unit is a little different than "traditional" window units. There is no slot or anything really to grab on to the window or the sill. It is mainly secured by a brace that is also not screwed into anything really, just directing the weight of the external portion of the unit into the side of the exterior wall.

imp0cat 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The single hose units work. They have a lot of downsides though. They are heavy, loud and require a supply of fresh air. That means that your either do not block the window completely and draw hot air in, thus reducing the available cooling capacity of the unit, or seal the window and the unit will create low pressure area in your home and draw the air from elsehwere (via other leaking doors, windows or even bathroom fans - which can be a bit smelly).

tl;dr If you are considering a portable AC unit, try to get a dual hose one, or save for a mini/multi split.

gsquaredxc an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Wouldn’t someone that has to pay for an AC’s power bill be more aware of the cost-benefit analysis of energy efficiency over someone that doesn’t?