| ▲ | hsuduebc2 2 days ago |
| If you try very hard, you can understand the reason for bombardment, at least from the BEGINNING. Surely, not the reason for killing these poor children. But I never came to better conclusion about West Bank annexation that that it is pure imperialism. Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine. I'm still not quite sure what is the purpose, there is really not enough land or it's all just bs? I wonder if this ends up Flagged. |
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| ▲ | gershy 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| The west bank annexation happened in response to Jordanian aggression (who were joining with Egypt, with whom Jordan had a mutual defense pact, in a war I would say was ambiguously instigated by Israel/Egypt). Israel holds the territory with its army, and claims that neither Jordan (nor any country) owned it beforehand, which is a better-founded argument than some people may expect - the west bank was originally, by england, designated as a palestinian - not jordanian - state, arab leadership rejected it (to also reject an israeli state), england withdrew from it, and jordan occupied it, with very very limited international recognition. It's a pretty crazy history, I hope I got it right, please fact-check me. |
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| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine. Not sure it's the same thing. Russians want political and territorial control in Ukraine, not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians". Israel wants to conquer the whole of Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem) to replace the native population with its own. There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design. |
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| ▲ | jameshilliard a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design. About 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab so Palestinian integration into a state with a Jewish majority can work to a degree. The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work(i.e. basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries). | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This webpage has a pretty good rundown on the status of Arab Israelis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/what-know-about-arab-citiz... An example of implicit discrimination is Israel's ban on family unification with Palestinian spouses: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/511 | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The linked article is also blaming socioeconomic differences on Israel. But by many metrics Israeli Arabs are doing better than Arabs in other Arab countries. E.g. life expectancy for Israeli Arabs is higher than the Arab average, and higher than Jordan or Egypt. Similarly for income. While Israeli Arabs on average earn 65% that of Jewish Israelis at $2,400 vs $3,750, the average income in Jordan is $865, and Egypt $235. But differences in socioeconomic status between groups exist in every country. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | The question is whether Israel treats its Arab citizens fairly. Not whether they fare better in Israel than other countries by some metrics. | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | If you’re going to look at differences between groups, you can’t apply causality and accusation unless you account for other factors. |
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| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Now do Jews in Muslim countries. Or in areas under control of the PA. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | Imagine you're a parent explaining to a kid why it's not right to punch other kids. Do you accept "but they punch other kids too" as an excuse? | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | Imagine a parent introducing some special rules to protect a kid that’s being punched, like having them sit at the front, and the bullies start crying why they can’t sit in the front. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | The Israeli occupation of Palestine is nothing like a teacher sitting some kids at the front. | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | You choosing to zoom in and crop the picture shows a level of disingenuity likely due to ulterior bias. The area under control of the PA is ethnically cleansed from Jews, with an ongoing apartheid where, for example, selling property to Jews is punishable by death, and they have government issued bounties for the killing of Jews. So Israel has restricted marriage visas from that location. The law still applies to every Israeli equally - Jews also cannot bring in people from that area on a marriage visa. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | Banning the eating of fish on Fridays discriminates against Catholics, even if the ban applies to everyone. |
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| ▲ | throw310822 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. > The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones. > basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. In many cases it was actually better. The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims. | | |
| ▲ | jameshilliard 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | > you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate. > This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. I'm not justifying actual wrongs, however Israel giving citizenship to all individuals who claim to be Palestinians is unlikely to result in a good outcome. > In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones. Just look at Palestinian opinion polling and it will become clear why giving citizenship to all Palestinians would likely result in a civil war. > Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. Jews lived as second class citizens in Muslim majority countries. > In many cases it was actually better. That's not really saying much. > The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims. Yet there are far more Jews living in Europe today than there are Jews living in MENA countries(excluding Israel). Maybe Europeans largely learned that their past behavior was wrong while those in MENA countries largely did not. |
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| ▲ | hsuduebc2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well russians over the history resettled the native population numerous times, even resettle russians there.
But the truth is they mostly want control for whatever reason they made up. Part of their propaganda is thet Ukrainians are basically confused russians so you got the point here. But I wouldn't be sure about your claim regarding Israel. Even now there are millions of Palestinians with Israel citizenship. I understand the deeply rooted animosity with hamas but I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank. I suppose it have something to do with their extreme religious part of goverment? You've had a point. Maybe it's more like Native Americans and colonizer type of situation. | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank Besides the obvious religious/ ideological motivation, there's also a simple matter of territory: Israel is a small country and the West Bank and Gaza have a lot of value, both for the country as a whole (more space for more people, more natural resources, nobody to share with) as well as commercial value- think developments, real estate, industrial and agricultural areas, seafront properties, etc. Very hard to keep your hands off this bounty, for decades, when the rest of the world basically allows you everything. | |
| ▲ | cicko 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are no longer allowed into Israel. That's my understanding after watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrmE-WiC4eA | | |
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| ▲ | TiredOfLife 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians" That is literally what they are doing in occupied territories | |
| ▲ | n4r9 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians" The similarity might be stronger than you suspect. Russia abducts and transports Ukrainian children to controlled territories [0], and actively encourages its own citizens to relocate to captured Ukrainian areas through economic incentives, subsidized housing, and aggressive long-term repopulation strategies. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7g5xnvl2eo [1] https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russias... [[ Edit - added references in response to flagging ]] | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Kidnapping and moving children to new parents also counts as genocide under the convention on genocide. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Ukraine is my pet war. I really hope we don’t get caught in the genocide-debate tar pit as well. What’s happening is evil. That’s relatable, both in the problem and potential solutions. Whether it’s genocide under some international convention strikes me as a counterproductive distraction that replaces something horrifying with something boring. |
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| ▲ | Throw4832226 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | Protostome 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | eagleal 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Firing from schools, hospitals and resendential buildings. I really don't want to descend into countless counterexamples, but that's how virtually every military or militia wages war, including the IDF. I assume your confusion on this issue may be due to a lack of familiarity with the subject. Usually never ever has anything to do with malevolence (eg. in an attempt to use the counter strike as a propaganda story). More often, it's just a matter of convenience, logistics, and the realities of operating in populated areas. If there's one thing that CIA manuals on training militias stressed on, or any military history book in that regard, it's that soldiers need to be fed and supported. Or they'll find ways to meet those needs without you. | | |
| ▲ | Protostome 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying that every militia and army use hospitals as a base from which to wage war? (e.g. firing rockets, artillery shells, etc) | | |
| ▲ | eagleal 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Units will use any reinforced or cover position to carry their objective. Even roofs of civilians apartments, let alone reinforced structures such as hospitals, town halls, schools, etc if they can't use alternatives. Even antique frontal wars used terrain to their advantage. That's why we wrote rules of engagement, but if the bigger powers themselves abuse them, how can you expect militias that have to carry guerrilla or urban tactics to stand by them? | | |
| ▲ | Protostome 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, every choice has a consequence. For Israel the choice was accept rockets fired on Israeli towns on a regular basis(not settlements, btw, just towns within the 1948 UN recognized borders of Israel) or respond. BTW, The response came after texting the residents, distributing leaflets and annoncening in every way possible that the place is going to be bombed. BTW (2), For years Israel avoided bombing dense residential areas, despite knowing the origin of those rockets. |
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| ▲ | za3faran 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The whole world saw US soldiers in the Gulf states hiding in hotels when US bases were struck. |
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| ▲ | n4r9 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is a severe lack of construction materials in Gaza. My guess is that Hamas has a choice between using what's left for tunnels, or losing the war. | | |
| ▲ | Protostome 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That's a slight mix of cause and effect. There is a shortage of construction material because Hamas uses it not for the wellbeing of the citizens of Gaza, but for the construction of border crossing tunnels into Israel. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, that's Israel's purported reason for all of its blockades. The result, as in most cases in history, is that civilians bear the overwhelming brunt of the impact while the military resistance digs further in, switches to guerilla tactics, and becomes increasingly popular amongst civilians. Regardless, my original point stands that Hamas do not have the means and resources both to build public shelters for everyone and to continue its military efforts. |
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| ▲ | hsuduebc2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's why I mentioned that it was very shallowly understandable at the beginning. Not after few years of massacre. Interesting part about your commentary is, that you completely ignored the West bank I mentioned. Place when Israel forces killed hundreds of children with sole reason or colonisation of land belonging to someone else. Or at least I never found any other explanation for behavior at the West Bank. | |
| ▲ | throwaway6342 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They are deliberately targeting tent encampments. Given the IDF mil tech I guess they can deliberately target and destroy any kind of shelter. May, 2024: At least 21 killed in Israeli attacks on tent camp near Gaza’s Rafah [4] September, 2024: An Israeli strike on humanitarian tent camp for displaced Gazans killed at least 19 people [5] December 2024: Seven attacks on tent encampments in the past two weeks kill 34 Palestinians including 10 children [2] April 2025, Israeli strikes kill Palestinians in tented area for displaced in Gaza [3] January, 2026: Israeli airstrikes targeted tents belonging to displaced people [1] [1] https://www.reutersconnect.com/item/israeli-airstrikes-targe... [2] https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ohchr-opt-press-release-... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yrl891j23o [4] https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/5/28/at-least-21-kil... [5] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/an-israeli-strike-on-huma... | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | How do you place millions of people in bomb shelters when your neighbour of a few kms away bombs you any time it wants from fighter jets? Have you not seen the footage of bombs dropped with no warnings in the middle of the streets, on residential buildings, on schools, on hospitals? Israelis have bomb shelters because have ample warning and an enemy that is barely able to hit anything. This blaming the victims of your own bombings for not taking shelter- actually accusing them to be responsible for their own deaths and those of their relatives, parents, wives, children, is some of the most revolting and shameless Israeli propaganda. | | |
| ▲ | Protostome 2 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent [-] | | "Israeli authorities and security forces deliberately targeted Palestinian children, resulting in genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes in Gaza, and war crimes in the occupied West Bank, an independent U.N. inquiry said on Tuesday." Literally the first paragraph of the article we're commenting. |
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