| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago |
| > Basically what russians are trying in Ukraine. Not sure it's the same thing. Russians want political and territorial control in Ukraine, not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians". Israel wants to conquer the whole of Palestine (West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem) to replace the native population with its own. There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design. |
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| ▲ | jameshilliard a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| > There is no possible equal integration of Palestinians or their descendants into a Jewish state, not in a thousand years, and by design. About 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab so Palestinian integration into a state with a Jewish majority can work to a degree. The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work(i.e. basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries). |
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| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This webpage has a pretty good rundown on the status of Arab Israelis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/what-know-about-arab-citiz... An example of implicit discrimination is Israel's ban on family unification with Palestinian spouses: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/511 | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The linked article is also blaming socioeconomic differences on Israel. But by many metrics Israeli Arabs are doing better than Arabs in other Arab countries. E.g. life expectancy for Israeli Arabs is higher than the Arab average, and higher than Jordan or Egypt. Similarly for income. While Israeli Arabs on average earn 65% that of Jewish Israelis at $2,400 vs $3,750, the average income in Jordan is $865, and Egypt $235. But differences in socioeconomic status between groups exist in every country. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | The question is whether Israel treats its Arab citizens fairly. Not whether they fare better in Israel than other countries by some metrics. | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | If you’re going to look at differences between groups, you can’t apply causality and accusation unless you account for other factors. |
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| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Now do Jews in Muslim countries. Or in areas under control of the PA. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | Imagine you're a parent explaining to a kid why it's not right to punch other kids. Do you accept "but they punch other kids too" as an excuse? | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | Imagine a parent introducing some special rules to protect a kid that’s being punched, like having them sit at the front, and the bullies start crying why they can’t sit in the front. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | The Israeli occupation of Palestine is nothing like a teacher sitting some kids at the front. | | |
| ▲ | throw3784377 a day ago | parent [-] | | You choosing to zoom in and crop the picture shows a level of disingenuity likely due to ulterior bias. The area under control of the PA is ethnically cleansed from Jews, with an ongoing apartheid where, for example, selling property to Jews is punishable by death, and they have government issued bounties for the killing of Jews. So Israel has restricted marriage visas from that location. The law still applies to every Israeli equally - Jews also cannot bring in people from that area on a marriage visa. | | |
| ▲ | n4r9 a day ago | parent [-] | | Banning the eating of fish on Fridays discriminates against Catholics, even if the ban applies to everyone. |
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| ▲ | throw310822 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Jewish majority is not an issue. The issue is that Israel is not "the state of the Israelis", it's the Jewish state. You can become an Israeli, you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. > The issue is that if the demographics were flipped it would be unlikely to work This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones. > basically all of Jewish history in Muslim majority countries Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. In many cases it was actually better. The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims. | | |
| ▲ | jameshilliard 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | > you cannot become part of the ethno-religious group that the state is meant to represent. Not you and not any of your descendants, ever. AFAIU Israel does accept conversions to Judaism so that's not actually accurate. > This is a classic of Israeli propaganda: justifying an actual wrong (discrimination, apartheid, occupation, murder, you name it) with the allegation that a worse wrong would be committed by the other side. I'm not justifying actual wrongs, however Israel giving citizenship to all individuals who claim to be Palestinians is unlikely to result in a good outcome. > In other words, justifying actual crimes with imagined ones. Just look at Palestinian opinion polling and it will become clear why giving citizenship to all Palestinians would likely result in a civil war. > Jewish history in Muslim majority countries hasn't been worse than history in European and Christian countries. Jews lived as second class citizens in Muslim majority countries. > In many cases it was actually better. That's not really saying much. > The Holocaust was perpetrated by Europeans, not by Muslims. Yet there are far more Jews living in Europe today than there are Jews living in MENA countries(excluding Israel). Maybe Europeans largely learned that their past behavior was wrong while those in MENA countries largely did not. |
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| ▲ | hsuduebc2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well russians over the history resettled the native population numerous times, even resettle russians there.
But the truth is they mostly want control for whatever reason they made up. Part of their propaganda is thet Ukrainians are basically confused russians so you got the point here. But I wouldn't be sure about your claim regarding Israel. Even now there are millions of Palestinians with Israel citizenship. I understand the deeply rooted animosity with hamas but I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank. I suppose it have something to do with their extreme religious part of goverment? You've had a point. Maybe it's more like Native Americans and colonizer type of situation. |
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| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I do not understand the whole point of this type of colonisation of west bank Besides the obvious religious/ ideological motivation, there's also a simple matter of territory: Israel is a small country and the West Bank and Gaza have a lot of value, both for the country as a whole (more space for more people, more natural resources, nobody to share with) as well as commercial value- think developments, real estate, industrial and agricultural areas, seafront properties, etc. Very hard to keep your hands off this bounty, for decades, when the rest of the world basically allows you everything. | |
| ▲ | cicko 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are no longer allowed into Israel. That's my understanding after watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrmE-WiC4eA | | |
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| ▲ | TiredOfLife 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians" That is literally what they are doing in occupied territories |
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| ▲ | n4r9 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > not expelling Ukrainians to resettle the place with "ethnic Russians" The similarity might be stronger than you suspect. Russia abducts and transports Ukrainian children to controlled territories [0], and actively encourages its own citizens to relocate to captured Ukrainian areas through economic incentives, subsidized housing, and aggressive long-term repopulation strategies. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7g5xnvl2eo [1] https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russias... [[ Edit - added references in response to flagging ]] |
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| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Kidnapping and moving children to new parents also counts as genocide under the convention on genocide. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Ukraine is my pet war. I really hope we don’t get caught in the genocide-debate tar pit as well. What’s happening is evil. That’s relatable, both in the problem and potential solutions. Whether it’s genocide under some international convention strikes me as a counterproductive distraction that replaces something horrifying with something boring. |
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