| ▲ | Police officer investigated for using AI to 'create evidence' in multiple cases(news.sky.com) |
| 192 points by austinallegro 5 hours ago | 82 comments |
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| ▲ | constableclaude 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| The headline evokes ideas of creating a video of a suspect perpetrating the crime but what I think is much more likely is the police officer used AI to enhance an image in a way that they considered innocuous, e.g: a photo was blurry so they “enhanced” it. Since “enhancing” is letting AI fill in the gaps it would be using AI to “create evidence”. Regardless of what they did, tampering with evidence is completely unacceptable and should result in their dismissal and conviction but I don’t think the story will transpire to be as attention grabbing. A well meaning idiot could convince themselves that enhancing evidence is somehow justifiable whereas it would be almost impossible for even the most corrupt moron to justify creating evidence out of thin air. Creating evidence out of thin air would be ridiculous because evidence is available to the defence who would be able to immediately identify if an image or video had been created (as the defendant would be able to recognize what they do or did not do) whereas “enhancing” an image could be easily spotted by other officers. “How come this photo is clearer than the last time I saw it?”
“Oh I ran it through ChatGPT to clean it up! Neat, eh? Just like on CSI!” |
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| ▲ | xorcist a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | That is a lot of words just to say "fabricating evidence". | |
| ▲ | Jensson 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > what I think is much more likely is the police officer used AI to enhance an image in a way that they considered innocuous, e.g: a photo was blurry so they “enhanced” it Doesn't iphones do this by default? The camera isn't actually that sharp, instead it fills in the details so it looks sharp, and sometimes it adds things that were never there. Can easily see it adding a gun in a blurry photo of someone. So almost everyone uses AI to forge evidence then. | |
| ▲ | kubb 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It matters little what you think, if that’s not what happened. | |
| ▲ | Chinjut 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, let's please give police officers the copious (cop-ious?) benefit of the doubt they have earnt. | |
| ▲ | thatguy0900 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is a tremendous amount of cases you can look up where cops wholesale fabricate evidence. Why wouldn't they use chatgpt to do it as well? |
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| ▲ | radicaldreamer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wonder how many people have been unjustly imprisoned between planted evidence, made up evidence, and illegal parallel construction… |
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| ▲ | gcr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Here in the US? Probably a large double-digit percentage of cases imo… | | |
| ▲ | cadamsdotcom 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > large double-digit percentage This is a very very intense claim, and if true, would represent a monumental institutional failure across hundreds or even thousands of disparate organizations. Do you have any data to support your hunch? Strong claims require strong evidence. | | |
| ▲ | rvnx an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Shouldn't it be the exact opposite here ? The burden of proof is the other way around. The big claim is here: the state has grandiose claims that the overwhelming majority is fair, but there is no proof of it. Therefore the state should prove that more than 90% of the cases are legitimate, fair, not coerced, and not motivated by the pressure to interrupt the proceedings. 97% of people choose plea deals or out-of-court settlement, it is a huge amount. It means that in real practice, not imaginary internet, people who face court consider that justice is a big machine that can crush you no matter if you are innocent or not. In the best case you are acquitted at the end, but you are guaranteed to bear the financial burden, fear and stress as a punishment. Being held in jail before trial is a very convincing reason to plea deal too. It's a system engineered to make pleading the only reasonable option, no matter if you did anything or not. | | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That is true--the checks and balances the founding fathers fought so hard for were thrown out the window with overlegislation and expansion of prosecutorial discretion in 20th century. To make a convincing argument that "double digits" of cases involve fabricated evidence, you still need to explain why prosecutors would engage in fraud at this massive scale. Just laziness? Collecting scalps? The incentives run that way in some limited cases, e.g., prosecutor up for election, post-reconstruction south. But you need some explanation there. | |
| ▲ | CoastalCoder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Shouldn't it be the exact opposite here ? The burden of proof is the other way around That's the rule for criminal court in the US, but each of us is free to pick his own standard for his own purposes. | |
| ▲ | cadamsdotcom 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | A burden of proof is associated with an individual claim. There’s no “burden of proof in the other direction” - what you’ve actually done is created a second burden of proof and also - worse - attempted to distract from the original point. It is disingenuous to weasel out of proving one claim by making another, or saying “look over here” Also, outrageous claims in opposite directions can both be bullshit. | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | On what basis is it an outrageous claim? You think the number is closer to 0? That sounds like a more outrageous claim to me. |
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| ▲ | jyounker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When DNA matching was introduced, we discovered that at minimum 10% of people on death row were innocent. Death row cases are among the most litigated and examined cases. So, 10% is a reasonable floor, and we're already in double digits. | | |
| ▲ | pseudo0 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That stat is off by a couple orders of magnitude. The total number of death penalty convictions overturned by DNA evidence is 29 (as of 2025). There are a couple thousand death row inmates right now, and the denominator here is all the people who were on death row in the last 20+ years. That's a rate of significantly <1%. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/first-death-row-exoneration-inv... | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "we discovered that at minimum 10% of people on death row were innocent" How did we do that? I never heard this: certainly 10% of people on death row weren't exonerated by DNA? This is some kind of shaky extrapolation I assume? | |
| ▲ | peyton 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This reasonably sets a floor I disagree wrt reasonableness. It’s just too big a leap. There are a lot of crimes, and not many land you on death row. | | |
| ▲ | brookst an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The observation was that death row represents the highest level of scrutiny, and still had 10% false positives for guilt. Is there any argument that less-scrutinized cases would have a lower level of false convictions? | | | |
| ▲ | halestock an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hoo boy, welcome to the history of the United states. |
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| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A few years ago, one of my coworkers was arrested for a domestic violence complaint. Looking into his case, I found an extremely specific lurid description of the allegations -- and then I found the same lurid description copy/pasted to every other person recently arrested for the same crime. I'm probably getting the specific terms wrong, but I did click through to see it on a government website, because my first suspicion was the aggregator, but no, the police just had a boilerplate story full of specifics which could not possibly apply to each and every person they carelessly slapped it onto. This absolutely blew my mind at the time, but it fits with smaller subsequent observations. In any case: a double digit percentage of institutional failure does not upset my priors about how carefully the police operate. | | | |
| ▲ | chaps 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | An important thing you should recognize: the judicial system is painfully nontransparent in such a way that even figuring this sort of thing takes an extensive amount of time and is often even impossible. I've personally gone down a similar route (did some journalism for a bit) by trying to understand how shotspotter is used in prosecution, many of which resulted in false arrests and many, many years of life lost across all the people arrested falsely from it. If you would like to begin trying to answer these, I recommend starting with submitting some FOIAs. Considering your stance seems to be that you won't believe what others are telling you -- I promise you that you'll be surprised. | |
| ▲ | dpkirchner an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you believe parallel construction should be illegal (it sure seems like it is unconstitutional to me), then 100% of prosecutions that rely on it are unjust. I don't think anyone truly knows how common it is, though, and that's by design. Double-digits wouldn't shock me at all. | |
| ▲ | lokar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t know the numbers, but DNA exonerations give a bit of a natural experiment (where testable evidence was preserved). | | | |
| ▲ | Arodex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Police in the United States is already in a state of "institutional failure"... | | |
| ▲ | cadamsdotcom 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | “Police in the United States” is not a monolith. It’s easy to say things that sound true on the surface, but even if true, it’s still irresponsible to say them on the back of a hunch. | | |
| ▲ | nixon_why69 a minute ago | parent [-] | | It's more monolithic than you would think due to shared culture over the internet. There's a whole narrative about sheepdogs (them), sheep (us) and wolves (the bad guys). |
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| ▲ | adastra22 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you have any exposure to the criminal "justice" system in the USA? | |
| ▲ | vitally3643 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | We have the highest proportion of imprisoned citizens in the world. This is done because there's an exception in our constitution for slavery "as punishment for a crime" and well all know that capitalism loves slave labor. |
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| ▲ | Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Especially if law enforcement uses Parallel Construction [0], lying to the court about the process taken. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction |
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| ▲ | tyingq 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Consider all of that can be used for forced confessions and forced plea bargains also. In those cases, the "evidence" doesn't even need to exist at all, or be on the record in any way. | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Let alone all it takes is a photo and a voice clip of 10sec to create an imitation of that person confessing to whatever your heart desires. | | |
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| ▲ | gdulli 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sadly, there's more evil and more laziness/incompetence in the world that's being accelerated by AI than there is good. | |
| ▲ | madaxe_again 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Over all time? Probably tens of millions. |
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| ▲ | bobthepanda 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| i do wonder, that in the age where we have image and video creation out of the bag, whether or not this will result in whole classes of evidence becoming completely unreliable. |
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| ▲ | pjc50 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's a big gap between "theoretically unreliable" and courts actually recognizing that, unfortunately. Lots of forensics is much more dubious than CSI would have you believe. | | |
| ▲ | thatguy0900 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | My girlfriends been having me watch law and order svu with her and to be honest it doesn't really even seem trustworthy with how they want to present it. The psychologist guy especially will come up with some wildly detailed assertions about who the criminal is based on nothing |
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| ▲ | yardstick 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There used to be - probably still are - cameras that would digitally sign all their images. Used in crime scenes? Maybe we will end up seeing wider adoption of this, despite the privacy implications. Hackers attention then will focus (once again) on the certificate supply chain and crypto hardware. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I worked for a company that made these. We sold expensive software to the FBI. Took about six months for someone to crack the hash. | | |
| ▲ | deepserket 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What about a system that saves in some way the hash in a Blockchain, and if you, eg, XOR the hash of the video with the hash of the previous block you will "certainly" know that the video was created between the previous block and the block where the hash is saved in. That's a starting point. | | |
| ▲ | dindunuf 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | that does nothing to verify authenticity | |
| ▲ | mcapodici 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This sort of chain doesn't need PoW I take it, just a very secure police server to sign blocks. | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Might have a point. This was before blockchain. I suspect that the cops wouldn’t like the chain public, though. | | |
| ▲ | Terr_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Like when people discuss voting, I believe a blockchain [0] is a terrible pitfall compared to a classic distributed database system of predefined nodes run by different organizations. For example, imagine a couple hundred predefined nodes run by different states, federal agencies, etc. An attacker altering the ledger would still require compromising an unreasonably large number of independent groups at once, and even then the rest would be able to clearly see that some unusual and suspicious event occurred. By limiting membership a bunch of problems simply vanish, like long-clearing times, wasting hardware on mining, vulnerability to foreign botnets, etc. [0] A blockchain is distinguished by its core requirement, from which a cascade complexity flows: Uncontrolled node membership. Don't be fooled by people pitching "private blockchain", its a contradiction in terms designed to rehabilitate hype, like "multi-sample Theranos test" or a bicycle as "Segway passively stabilized inline wheel model." |
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| ▲ | EPWN3D 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Crack the hash"? Does this mean you were employing some novel hashing algorithm and relying on its secrecy? If so your employer were never serious about security in the first place. Hardware attestation is more or less a solved problem, and that solution does not involve secret algorithms. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Eh. It was some kind of hash of the image. I was not involved in that project, so can't tell you exactly how it worked, but the images were "signed," and someone figured out how to "re-sign" an altered image. I think it was a fairly well-known technique. |
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| ▲ | lostlogin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Now sell them version 2. |
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| ▲ | aorloff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I imagine in this age of blockchains you could embed into a media file a signature that proved it was no older than the timestamp of when it occurred, the digital equivalent of a hostage-proof-of-life photo with a recent newspaper But I don't know of a cryptographic mechanism to ensure that a digital image is not more recent than a particular time | | |
| ▲ | dspillett 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > But I don't know of a cryptographic mechanism to ensure that a digital image is not more recent than a particular time Many (most?) blockchain mechanisms include a timestamp in each transaction on the chain, so while multiple records from the same owner prove little (the timestamps could be faked over a given period of time) the interaction with the wider network and the chain would give some confidence that the record happened between within a small amount of time. The other possibility, that doesn't require a chain with many independent active participants, is to have things signed by an external trusted authority. Submit a hash of the content and appropriate metadata to them, and have them sign it with a signing timestamp. I've considered abusing ACME certificates for document signing like that: the hash of content (or some signature based upon it) becomes the subdomain to sign¹ and you get a certificate that even after expiry is evidence that the CA saw that value at the signing timestamp. Note of the signing will also be in the public certificate transparency log. This wouldn't, on its own, prove anything about the authenticity of the content, that could have been doctored before signing, but it does prove that the content+metadata existed at that time (so might be more useful in copyright claim type cases, or agreed contract situations where all parties have signed the content and the signatures are included in the metadata, than for proving authenticity). ---------------- [1] based64²-ed with non-alphanumeric characters removed and truncated³ to fit or split, so acodha3sf7whsrhtqestkabtx0b4bbhyveee0ajnrpqcuxrjjvmhsujgcex.domain.tld or acodha3sf7whsrhtqestkabtx0b4bbhyveee0ajnrpqcuxrjjvmhsujgcex.w5jmmkpmyfgshx2jecsfordpnq.domain.tld [2] names not being case-sensitive drops some of the entropy, if that is a concern use a 32-bits-per-character encoding instead and have names twice as long | |
| ▲ | gcr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Publish hash(image) on the blockchain at a verifiable time, then publish the image itself. The image contains the previous block’s hash. Wouldn’t this establish both a lower bound and an upper bound on the time the image could have been produced? | |
| ▲ | __del__ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | wouldn't that be a hash of the image signed by a trusted entity and stored on a chain? maybe i'm overlooking why this doesn't work | |
| ▲ | catlikesshrimp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting, There aren't any newspapers left in my country, neither printed nor not printed. The closest you can find is the weekly advertising booklet here and there. Which is irrelevant now because a computer can either stich new content to an old picture, or entirely producing a custom picture. That would be a use case for a block chain. But I still don't understand how you are securing the integrity of the validity of the certificate stating the authenticity of the media. I only understand you are stamping media with a "at least as old as [timestamp] | | |
| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you want to prove that "happened at or after this timestamp" you can use a randomness beacon. NIST[0] and others publish a random number every N minutes. Embed that (or a combination) of those seeds to prove that you observed this value. This does not work for the harder problem of proving an event happened before a timestamp. [0] https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/interoperable-randomness-beac... | |
| ▲ | appaj 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which country no longer has newspapers? |
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| ▲ | Lammy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The end-game is that people will willingly surveil themselves 24/7 on behalf of The System because that will be the only way to prove what they didn't do. | | |
| ▲ | LtWorf 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ah yes training the AI with more data to represent me even more accurately. |
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| ▲ | thewebguyd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I suspect so. Tbh, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already with the amount of processing that cell phones do on photos, with generative fill/expand/perspective change, etc. We are quickly going to reach a point where any photo or video taken on a smartphone is inadmissible by default. | |
| ▲ | asdff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You should see what people were capable of in the darkroom, let alone before all this. You could always manipulate imagery ever since there was imagery to manipulate. | | |
| ▲ | Arodex 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is why: - the whole roll of negatives was prime evidence; - police forces were one of the biggest users of Polaroid instant film. And moreover, who had a darkroom and the skills to edit substantially a picture? Whereas here we have nobodies being able to generate pixel-perfect fake "evidence" from the computers they already have. | | |
| ▲ | asdff an hour ago | parent [-] | | Plenty of people. If you have running water, some tape, and trashbags, you too could have a darkroom. https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/objects/objects@exhibi... The roll itself can be manipulated too. Most of the techniques used in modern photoshop are basically 1:1 carry overs of darkroom processes. Layers, dodge and burn, masking, etc. There was a time you could take this class in highschool. |
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| ▲ | olyjohn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big difference between that and writing an AI prompt. | | |
| ▲ | asdff an hour ago | parent [-] | | Not really. End result is the same: manipulated image. | | |
| ▲ | pyth0 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Are we really pretending like the effort to do something doesn't affect how often that thing occurs? | | |
| ▲ | asdff an hour ago | parent [-] | | Are we acting like that was ever a limiting factor towards disseminating propaganda in the analog age? |
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| ▲ | mukbangpervert 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We've gone from highly skilled people being able to forge some specific photos and documents using substantial time/energy/resources, to any asshole being able to generate realistic full-motion video in minutes. I get that there is a certain type of moron who thinks that the collapse in cost of misinformation has no harm... but all you've done is announce to the world that you are a moron. | | |
| ▲ | asdff an hour ago | parent [-] | | It is really not any different. People would throw a hubcap in the air and pitch it as a UFO photo and idiots would latch on to that. You could take a photo of the empire state building and use a double exposure to make it look like you were king kong. Kids were doing this sort of stuff. Stop motion home movies where you'd look like you were levitating or your head got cut off. It always comes down to provenance. |
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| ▲ | croes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How many people could do that? How long did it take? Now it’s a lot easier and faster | | |
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| ▲ | testing22321 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m still shocked we have not seen an extremely convincing AI video of a famous person or world leader announcing something huge like UBI or WW3 or aliens. Surely it’s just a matter of time. |
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| ▲ | WarOnPrivacy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| per ft.com: https://archive.fo/BIOej [The Derbyshire Police] declined to give more detail
about what the evidential material consisted of.
The term [evidential material] can be used to
describe witness statements.
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| ▲ | wahern 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know if it's still the case in the UK, but in the common law and still in the US this why all substantive evidence, with very rare exception (e.g. dying statements), is witness testimony given on the stand. It may seem absurd when a witness or expert is given a transcript of an earlier statement or report just to recite it, but this is exactly why. The loophole is all the powers the police and government have to more-or-less punish someone before a trial, or even before charges. |
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| ▲ | tim-tday an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe use the word “falsify”? |
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| ▲ | tamimio an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Can we know the motivation? Will it get them a bonus at the end of the year? Was it something common in the cases, maybe similar victims or something else? |
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| ▲ | delichon 44 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'd wager that it was just a shortcut to getting his work done. That banal motive is why we've seen an explosion of these cases and why they won't stop. |
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