| ▲ | zmmmmm 6 hours ago |
| Listen - that's the sound of millions of companies and users doubling down on Chinese models. It might be a national security problem for other nations to have access to these models. But it's equally now a national security problem for any other nation to depend on them. Or US tech in general. |
|
| ▲ | tkgally 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| As it happens, the current number-two article on HN is about a similar consequence of Chinese export controls--a car manufacturer developing electric motors that do not use rare earths: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48510010 |
| |
| ▲ | roenxi 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The incentives around OSS become stronger the further down in the list of market leaders a company is. The #1 company has no particular incentive to push open software apart from a belief that the market is going to be come commoditised anyway. But the 2nd or 3rd largest player has actual incentives to break the market up and remove software quality as a consideration. No #10 may as well not bother with a proprietary option since if they make it a software quality battle they're going to lose each customer 9 times anyway. Just because the Chinese are running export controls in one market doesn't mean that they're going to close of access to AI. They might, but each market should be considered in isolation. | |
| ▲ | kccqzy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Realpolitik in action. Great powers just impose export controls because they know they can and they think it would be beneficial to the nation. | | |
| ▲ | zmmmmm 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | And it is nearly always hubris - the people making these decisions are surrounded by yes-men who built their whole career pumping up the egos of their superiors. |
| |
| ▲ | dyauspitr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah because they’re just using electromagnets. Those motors are not better than the rare earth ones. |
|
|
| ▲ | Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Listen - that's the sound of millions of companies and users doubling down on Chinese models. They’re falling back to Opus 4.8. Most people weren’t using Fable for everything anyway because it’s so expensive. None of open weights models are even at Opus 4.8 levels. If someone was using Fable they don’t have any second best alternative outside of Anthropic. |
| |
| ▲ | itopaloglu83 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A sample of one, but I was getting more stuff done despite Fable uses tokens twice as fast as Opus, because it understood the goals so well and worked to achieve them. | | |
| ▲ | hodgehog11 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Same experience. Wouldn't waste my tokens on easy stuff for it. It blasted through some of my toughest problems and produced some truly great code. | |
| ▲ | 2001zhaozhao 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > more stuff done More stuff done per dollar or more stuff done for more dollars? Seems to be an important distinction | | |
| ▲ | itopaloglu83 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Given the same usage limits, I was able to get more stuff done and not even hit the usage limits, because I wasn't working on constantly fixing what Opus was trying to do, Fable just understands the task correctly and works great with the given context. |
| |
| ▲ | pshc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Same, I was actually having interesting thought experiments with Fable. | |
| ▲ | malshe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I even upgraded my Max plan because Fable was doing so well. | |
| ▲ | consumer451 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Same here, now n=2. |
| |
| ▲ | dbish 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep. I love open source but there isn’t a model that comes close still to the closed source options like Opus 4.8 and that’s obvious from most people I see across the software industry as well. There are at least another few models after Opus from OpenAI and Anthropic most would go down the list using before any of the Chinese models at this point. | | |
| ▲ | sixothree 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I could really use something that can just refactor a few classes and create DTOs from entities. |
| |
| ▲ | cube00 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Most people weren’t using Fable for everything anyway because it’s so expensive. Or they were getting silently rerouted and couldn't realise they weren't using Fable | |
| ▲ | dyauspitr 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Opus 4.8 has taken such a beating over the last couple of days since the release of fable, videos online of people referring to it like the “redheaded stepchild” (is there a better way of saying this, this sounds racist) basically at this point, everyone is going to be seriously disappointed to fall back to that. | | |
| ▲ | nozzlegear 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > is there a better way of saying this, this sounds racist It's not racist or even politically incorrect in the US, it's a common saying. | | |
| ▲ | dyauspitr 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, I am aware. Kind of paints redheads as unwanted though. Seems hurtful. | | |
| ▲ | nozzlegear 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, not sure where the phrase originated but it does sound bad when you put some thought into it. My sister is a redhead and people loved to make fun of her growing up, telling her there's no way two parents with brown hair could have a kid with red hair, so the mailman (who also had red hair) was obviously her dad. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | loeg 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > If someone was using Fable they don’t have any second best alternative outside of Anthropic. GPT-5.5 isn't awful. |
|
|
| ▲ | nonethewiser 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Which models? Im curious what kind of more specific hypothesis you're willing to put forth. Anthropic going to lose 20-30-40-50% of users to Deepseek? What? |
| |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I quit paying for Claude Code to buy z.ai's coding plan for use with OpenCode. I'm not a power user, but I don't regret switching away from Claude. OpenCode is generally nicer for my work. | | |
| ▲ | pkulak 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why z.ai and not an ollama pro plan that can use all the open models? Real question, not snark. I've only ever done ollama and wonder what I'm missing. | | |
| ▲ | cube00 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I've only ever done ollama and wonder what I'm missing. Friends Don't Let Friends Use Ollama https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47788385 | |
| ▲ | commanderkeen08 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The z.ai was stupid cheap during the great anthropic opencode rugpull. | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because I bought a year's subscription in December, when it was still $6/mo :P I have decently capable hardware, but stuff like Qwen 3.6 and Gemma 4 still doesn't compare to agentic editing with a frontier model. Right now, OpenCode's $10/mo "Go" plan is what I'd be looking to try once my year expires. |
| |
| ▲ | garciasn 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I guess if it works for you, great; that’s why competition is a good thing. Enjoy. | |
| ▲ | nonethewiser 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Have never heard of it, thanks for the info |
|
|
|
| ▲ | laichzeit0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As a non-US person, I will use whatever is the best and reasonably priced. I could not give one iota about who makes or hosts these models. The origin or political leanings of these models mean nothing in my usage calculus. |
|
| ▲ | paulmist 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Aren't biggest Qwen 3.7 closed? I don't suspect China's policy here would be anything but ruthless. |
| |
| ▲ | girvo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | MiniMax M3 is surprisingly powerful, and open weight (or is about to be). There's others in this space too: MiMo v2.5, GLM 5.1. There's quite a few to pick from if you want strong models running on "your" hardware. | |
| ▲ | andrewchambers 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | deepseek v4 pro is great and open weight. | | |
| ▲ | EchoVoicy 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is, and I love it, but it isn't capable of performing the tasks I've been giving to Opus, let alone Fable. Don't get me wrong, I use it, it's fast-smart-and affordable. But not suitable for all tasks. | | |
| ▲ | droidjj 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | What kinds of tasks are you finding deepseek v4 incapable of? | | |
| ▲ | EchoVoicy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | For starters, there's a C++ application written with MFC and an absolute ton of inline assembly and threading (yes, in a 1990's C++ application). I'm porting it to MacOS/Linux currently. Opus 4.6+ is able to make slow progress, but it takes several revisions per workstream. It requires constant supervision as it often creates convoluted solutions that expand the code in bloated ways. It works, but still requires my constant input. Fable was able to almost one shot most of the big migrations with very few bugs, and was able to fix those bugs with 1 review pass. I almost didn't believe it. I was able to put it on a task (with dangerous permissions) and come back hours later to see it done, working, and clean. I tried DeepSeek v4 and it wasn't able to make any meaningful progress at all. It kept creating dangling pointers and had trouble understanding the inline assempbly needed to be replaced if we were to compile for 64 bit. It kept getting stuck and looping on the same problem, without making progress. What I do use DeepSeek for is lots of my automations on my websites. I find DeepSeek is fantastically cheap and fast and effective as summarization, collation, generating reports, finding and reporting issues from logs, etc. But I haven't found a way to get it to effectively port 90's C++ code to modern, cross-platform standards. But I want to be clear- I really like DeepSeek and use it wherever I can.. I mean.. it's so affordable! |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | ac29 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | All current Qwen 3.7 models are closed though they have said more releases are coming |
|
|
| ▲ | ks2048 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Wait until it is illegal to download or use Chinese models (only half-joking). |
| |
| ▲ | platinumrad 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Anthropic is explicitly lobbying for this. | | |
| ▲ | mcast 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Is there any SCOTUS precedent for this? It seems like a huge 1A issue for the government to limit self hosted access to a foreign country’s LLM. | | | |
| ▲ | fosco 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Know where I can read about that? | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The two main bills I'm aware of are the Decoupling America's AI Capabilities from China Act and No Adversarial AI Act. The former would have made it illegal for any American citizen to simply use DeepSeek. I couldn't find any lobbying data, but the obvious effect is that Americans would be forced to pay for more expensive domestic alternatives. A House committee also recently probed Cursor and Airbnb for using Chinese models, rather than more expensive American alternatives. A sexagenarian Congressman gave a nonsense quote that he certainly did not come up with himself,[1] which sounds very similar to language Anthropic uses in its marketing materials.[2][3] [1] https://www.semafor.com/article/04/29/2026/house-committee-p... [2] https://www.anthropic.com/news/updating-restrictions-of-sale... [3] https://www.anthropic.com/research/2028-ai-leadership | | |
| ▲ | aesthesia 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Moolenaar's quote: "The AI models these companies use are trained by China’s censorship regime and introduce hidden vulnerabilities that put Americans’ data and businesses at risk." That is, Americans using Chinese-trained AI models are exposed to some form of cybersecurity risk. That's not really a threat model described in either of the Anthropic posts you share, which mainly talk about the risks of allowing authoritarian regimes to use powerful US-trained models, and the geopolitical risks of authoritarian countries developing strong AI before democratic/liberal countries do. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | karmasimida 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Anthropic hates open weight Chinese models so yes | |
| ▲ | sh34r 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good thing these corrupt gerontocrats are also all in on cryptocurrency then. | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nothing funny about it. That's exactly what Amodei asks for, every time he rubs his monkey's paw. | |
| ▲ | verdverm 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They'll have to remove sections like this from their AI Action Plan > We need to ensure America has leading open models founded on American values. Open-
source and open-weight models could become global standards in some areas of business and
in academic research worldwide. For that reason, they also have geostrategic value. While the
decision of whether and how to release an open or closed model is fundamentally up to the
developer, the Federal government should create a supportive environment for open models. | | |
| ▲ | ks2048 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Unless they (gasp!) write some statement they don’t believe or don’t follow through with. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | WarmWash 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You are drinking the cool aid if you think the CCP is going to let the world get ahead of China using CCP models. |
| |
|
| ▲ | rw2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not really, they are not even as good as opus 4.7 |
| |
| ▲ | anonzzzies 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | So, a few month difference... Definitely usable as far as we found, especially being so much cheaper. | | |
| ▲ | miyuru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | yes, I am using mimo code(free version) for the last 2 days. I gets the job done for me. If I need to upgrade, the plan start at $6, so its a no brainer. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | dyauspitr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To do what? I mean they’re good models, but frankly, they fucking suck (relatively speaking). I’m not looking to going back to a week of back-and-forth with the LLM once I’ve gotten used to all this one shotting. |
|
| ▲ | 256BitChris 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| No one serious is using the open models. Using them is like traveling back 2-2.5 years in time and using ChatGPT. |
| |
| ▲ | zmmmmm 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | DeepSeekv4 Pro is roughly Opus 4.5 - Opus 4.6 in my estimation. That's about 8 months difference, not 2.5 years. It's definitely not as good. But it's also definitely good enough. | | |
| ▲ | EchoVoicy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Curious- in what tasks? I find Opus 4.5/4.6 too expensive and have tried to migrate to DeepSeek for C++ work, but found it couldn't cut it. What's your DSv4 setup? What harness? It sounds like I should give it another try! | |
| ▲ | untcarcandy 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
|
|