| ▲ | JohnMakin 9 hours ago |
| One of the craziest behaviors I have seen was from a murder of American crows in a big city area sidewalk I walk down frequently - occasionally, I have observed homeless and vagrants throwing stuff at them, because sometimes they sleep under the powerlines where the crows like to perch and I think the crows defecate on them or something. It's well known they can carry grudges, but one day, as I was walking down the sidewalk, a pretty sizable rock smacked the pavement next to me, seemingly out of nowhere. If it had hit my head I would have been hurt. I finally look up and see a big crow staring directly down at me - it had dropped it from the power lines, it had seemingly been intentional, maybe as a warning, I don't know. I attributed it to malice towards the vagrants that harass them. I was amazed at how much intelligence it would take to 1) form a grudge 2) form intent to threaten/harm, 3) formulate a plan using a weapon with cause -> effect to execute intent, 4) wait for opportunity. I have observed a lot of very intelligent behaviors from these birds but that was the wildest one. I have seen it happen once since, so I'm convinced it isn't an accident. |
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| ▲ | helterskelter 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Crows in country will wait for a newborn deer to be left alone in a field by their mothers shortly after birth to peck the baby's eyes out so it dies and the crow can eat it later. My neighbor had told me about this happening, and maybe a month later I saw a fawn with its eyes pecked out shortly after it had died. The doe just sat at the edge of the field by it all night. So sad, but really smart of the crows. Crows have also been known to alert predators like wolves to easy prey so they can pick the remains. |
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| ▲ | ifwinterco 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They also do this to lambs, they're smart but evil | | |
| ▲ | kibwen an hour ago | parent [-] | | > smart but evil Sadly I have yet to see evidence that something can be smart without being evil. | | |
| ▲ | dullcrisp 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Speak for yourself. | |
| ▲ | jamiek88 20 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I glanced at this and moved on but then my brain did a kind of record scratch on this comment. Great question does intelligence require selfishness / evil? I’m gonna think about this a bit, but my knee jerk was to (violently) disagree with this but I don’t know why. |
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| ▲ | agumonkey 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | second degree planning involving third party means very high social modeling, fascinating |
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| ▲ | prerok 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I remember reading an article in National Geographic of how crow's brains are much more interconnected than is the norm in mammals, i.e. IIRC they have a higher density of synapses between neurons. From that article, it seems that the usual brain weight vs. body weight to determine intelligence, which seems can be used to approximate intelligence in different species of mammals, cannot be used for birds (or at least crows, which the article was focusing on). In other words, they seem to achieve better results with smaller brains than we thought. And yes, crows (in EU) do exhibit some pretty intelligent behavior. |
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| ▲ | JohnMakin 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've read there's also a social aspect - crows are extremely social creatures, as are humans, and other highly intelligent animals like whales. That does seem to be a common denominator. Regarding that, I'm reminded of another story - on my daily walk near work, there was a dead crow on the pavement. 5 or so crows were standing all around it, doing nothing really. Even me passing close by did not trigger them to fly away or anything, it seemed like they were standing watch on the body. The next day, it was still there, same thing. The 3rd day, it was gone, but the crows were still standing watch in the same manner. I didn't know what to make of it other than it appeared they were mourning or taking part in some type of ingroup ritual. I didn't see it again after that, but it struck me. | | |
| ▲ | wrboyce 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Corvids have been known to investigate deaths, truly fascinating creatures! https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00033... | |
| ▲ | Terr_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > [Social creatures] does seem to be a common denominator. One theory is that it drives the creatures to internally model or simulate others intents and reactions, in a way which is a far more regular, consistent, and nuanced than any modeling of various prey or predators. Further along that path is modeling future-me in plans, and layers of "I know they will know I know they know, so..." |
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| ▲ | CSMastermind 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not an expert in the area but have read a bunch on this topic to try and understand it better. Bird brains and human brains are structured very differently. Birds are much more like GPUs with independent distributed processing happening in parallel. Mammals have these big bidirectional layers where signals are constantly propagating up and down in a big connected computation. | |
| ▲ | bruckie 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder what the energy/evolutionary cost of densely-connected brains is. If it's advantageous, why are crows exceptional? | | |
| ▲ | virgildotcodes an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | In terms of why bird brains would be exceptionally efficient for their volume (and I assume by extension, mass), would be that weight is at a premium for them. | |
| ▲ | xeonmc 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe they require the equivalent of advanced EUV machines to make? | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It could simply be an evolutionary "discovery", with no particular advantage over our "brain model". Evolution doesn't seek out optima; it simply encourages genetic structures that improve odds of reproductive success. Or, to put it another way: if corvid genetics happened upon a brain type that promoted their survival, it doesn't matter if it was "better" or "worse" than the path the monkey/hominid brains took. Genetics took the first bus going in that direction. |
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| ▲ | UncleOxidant 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They're even apparently able to pass their grudges along to other crows who did not have first-hand experience with the subject of the grudge. |
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| ▲ | observationist 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They plan pretty deeply - if you think about things like plastic lid snowboarding, or cup sorting games (fit the smaller cups inside the larger) and those types of puzzles, there's usually an abstract reward, whether it's fun, play, revenge, or some future food or whatnot. They tease other animals, will play fetch, demonstrate a rich emotional inner life, and all of those things can be motivations for their complex plans. Throw in familial loyalty, social dynamics, interactions with humans, and it's a recipe for glorious chaos. There's a lot more going on that doesn't cleanly map to most people's conception of birds. Ravens are wonderful creatures. |
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| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've seen crows pick up walnuts and drop them in front of moving cars so the tires will open them. I had heard that they will do that, but it was still something to see it happen. |
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| ▲ | billiam 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe you should be asking yourself what you did to piss of this corvid? They have been shown to recognize faces. |
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| ▲ | fritzo 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| By "sizable rock" do you mean large pebble or small boulder? |
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| ▲ | lowestprimate 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A large pebble the size of a small pebble | |
| ▲ | JohnMakin 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A little larger than a golf ball. | | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Something that produces a loud exclamation in a movie character, but possible permanent brain damage IRL. | | |
| ▲ | JohnMakin 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yea, what creeped me out, is this must have been done before, and got whatever effect the bird intended. hard to say what it’s motives were of course but they’re smart enough to know what they are doing |
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| ▲ | redsocksfan45 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | markdown 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Where I am from, a rock is by definition huge. It sounds like the bird dropped a stone. | | |
| ▲ | doodlebugging an hour ago | parent [-] | | If the stone the crow dropped weighed a stone, that's a big fuckin' rock where I come from. |
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| ▲ | phendrenad2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Oh, crows are WAY smarter than that. If one tried to drop a stone on you, it was because it didn't like your online comments. |
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| ▲ | cortesoft 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| My understanding is crows can recognize individuals, so I would think back to what you did to piss off that crow, or that crow's friends. |
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| ▲ | bitwize 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As demonstrated in humans, the ability to recognize individuals is little impediment to resentment based on group membership. | |
| ▲ | JohnMakin 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was guessing just a general preference towards anyone in their area. I have certainly never done anything harmful towards them. | | |
| ▲ | shimman 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Crows have been known to harass distinct individuals over others, even going as far as to teach other crows about this person. I wonder if this was an elder crow whose eyesight has decreased with age and gave out the wrong descriptions to their friends. :D |
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