| ▲ | aeonik 6 hours ago |
| Working backwards from clues in the article, thief maybe stole 200-400 ft of wire. Assuming between 3-1/8″ - 6-1/8″ diameter. Somewhere between $1,360 - $6,400 of scrap value. $70k-$100k to repair... Absurd. |
|
| ▲ | sowbug 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's the usual car stereo theft economics: cause $1,000 of damage to sell a $100 radio for $10. |
| |
| ▲ | m463 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | probably $10 of meth to harm a body so that it eventually needs $50k of medical work, or $100k of dental work | | |
| ▲ | cevn 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | 10 dollars? Who's your meth guy? | | |
| ▲ | zamadatix a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | They are saying said $10 from sale goes to buying meth, not that all they meth they want to buy will cost just that $10. | |
| ▲ | trympet 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | GP is talking out of his ass - he’s probably not up to speed on meth economics like you and me. | | |
| ▲ | shrubble 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You may need to revise your methematical model. | |
| ▲ | NewJazz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Methenomics say that you can step on product however much you need to reach the demanded price point. | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | DetroitThrow 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | HN constantly undervalues meth and this has been called out since at least 2009. Horrible. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | johanvts 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why hasn’t the economist of the world figured out a solution to this problem. There has to be a better way when both sides would be better off by just paying the theif double. Some kind of proof of work system to show that you really are crazy enough to do the crime maybe. |
| |
| ▲ | NewJazz 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The person needs to have a stake in the infrastructure OR there needs to be a high chance of them getting caught and losing something. People with little stake in a community will strip infrastructure bare. Inequality is a significant root cause here. | |
| ▲ | zeafoamrun 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I prefer the 9mm solution | |
| ▲ | tshaddox 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn’t the most obvious response from economics that the crime needs to be made more expensive? In other words, the likelihood of being harmed while attempting the crime needs to be much higher. If a quarter of the people who tried a comparable theft got thrown in jail for 2 years and another quarter got shot by a security guard, I suspect attempts would be rare. The financial damage done by the thief is presumably irrelevant to the thief, beyond the fact that sentencing is probably stricter for bigger thefts. | | |
| ▲ | jmward01 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I highly doubt the people doing this look at crime and punishment stats before they do this. More punishment often just ends up costing society because courts and incarceration aren't cheap and no real rehabilitation so it often just makes the person do more bad things when they get out. I'm not saying 'no jail', but we do need evidence based criminal justice. | | | |
| ▲ | 47282847 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Criminal punishment research consistently shows that reality does not follow initial intuition here. https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annur... "Unfortunately, so far, the existing empirical work has not had a central place in policy, legislation, and political discourse.” (“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result”) | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In other words, the likelihood of being harmed while attempting the crime needs to be much higher Humans are notoriously bad at evaluating probabilities. They'll buy lottery tickets at 1:300,000,000 odds, and are upset when an 85% shot in XCOM misses... The likelihood of being harmed would need to be basically 100% before folks would stop taking the risk. | |
| ▲ | hiddencost 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's another theory which says that if people have health care, food, shelter, education, and liberty, they won't commit crimes like this. Just a thought. | | |
| ▲ | jeffrallen 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not a theory. It's socialism and it works fine in Scandinavia, Switzerland, and a bunch of other places. | | |
| ▲ | johanvts 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Im Danish, and I approve of the welfare state system, but we still have people cutting down EV charger cables etc here. | |
| ▲ | apelapan 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Scandinavian scrap metal thieves organize trucks and cranes to steal copper roofs from old churches and rip down railroad overhead lines all the time. Free healthcare and education, guaranteed housing and social safety nets make little difference. Some people will stop at nothing to get more, no matter how much they already have. (Applies to billionaires and paupers alike). I guess you could call it having an entrepreneurial spirit. No one steals car stereos anymore though, because you can't sell them to anyone. That mechanism could be put to more work. Heavy, EU-wide supervision and enforcement against scrap metal dealers would probably make a difference. |
|
| |
| ▲ | close04 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That just leads either to disproportionate or cruel and unusual punishment (not every object has the inherent level of danger so your $200 property must be rigged to kill or severely injure on attempted theft), or to raising stakes where the criminal is willing to do much worse since the outcome could anyway be death or severely body harm. If getting shot for $1000 is on the table, might as well come with a gun and shoot first, and topple the whole tower while at it. When you punish a baggie of drugs with 20 years in prison or potentially getting shot dead in the street, drug dealers escalate to containers of drugs. Where are you going to escalate the punishment? For those who feel like they get nothing from society no punishment works effectively, they are already in a prison with no future. | |
| ▲ | intended an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nope. The surest disincentive is knowing you will be caught, not the penalty. If you can get away with it, then what value the penalty? |
| |
| ▲ | themafia 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why hasn’t the economist of the world figured out a solution to this problem. They have. It's called insurance. The problem here might be the change in copper prices which possibly increased the value of the line and which were never properly reassessed for coverage. > better off by just paying the theif double. You could also just require a license to scrap copper. That people can show up with a suspicious pile of metal and convert into cash seems to be what creates the opportunity for the thief. > that you really are crazy enough to do the crime maybe. We shouldn't motivate people to extremes. We should probably just punish drug dealers far more harshly in this country. | | |
| ▲ | razakel an hour ago | parent [-] | | >That people can show up with a suspicious pile of metal and convert into cash seems to be what creates the opportunity for the thief. The UK does that - a scrap dealer can only pay by bank transfer or cheque. That way there's a paper trail. |
| |
| ▲ | jcgrillo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or pay a guard a fair wage and comp them the $0.20 or whatever for each bullet.. EDIT: to be clear I'm not saying it should be that way, but there was a time not long ago when this was the normal way to handle the situation. I'd argue the present arrangement is more civilized. |
|
|
| ▲ | xp84 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Other than those who commit grave offenses of bodily harm, I reserve my greatest disgust for the type of dirtbag who imposes these orders-of-magnitude greater costs on other innocent people for such a relatively low "reward." They'd burn the Mona Lisa for fuel, melt down the Statue of Liberty for scrap, anything if you let them. I agree with another commenter here, the overlap of this mindset with tweakers is large. |
| |
| ▲ | bandofthehawk 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In general I agree with you, but it also makes me wonder how these people got to this point. I think most people would burn the Mona Lisa if it meant surviving through a cold night.
Our society has failed these people in many ways. | | |
| ▲ | hyperhello 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t see how to blame our society for copper thieves. | | |
| ▲ | bandofthehawk 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Lack of healthcare, limited job opportunities, growing income inequality, are just a few reasons off the top of my head. | | |
| ▲ | bigbuppo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Local copper thieves that were busted stealing telco lines... they were just looking to make a quick buck regardless of legality or care for the impact it had on other people. They're more like tech company CEOs, really. | | |
| ▲ | peddling-brink 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | And these thieves were already well cared for in a healthy society with all sorts of opportunities available to them regardless of social status, skin color, and mental heath? Crime goes down when the gap between the rich and the poor goes down. |
| |
| ▲ | paleotrope 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Drugs. It's usually drugs. |
| |
| ▲ | esikich 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Right, why didn't everyone just get good education, dental care, and healthcare, get a car when they're 16, have their parents help them go to college and work for a VC and get rich. Just can't understand it. Truly, an enigma. | | |
| ▲ | TurdF3rguson 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is what nobody wants to admit, whether it's nature or nurture doesn't matter because you're not in control of either of them. You were born into so and so of a family, and they brought you up with such and such care and values. The idea that you've been "force of willing" it through your whole life since infancy and are therefore solely accountable for your outcome is absurd. We know that at some level and yet still can't help taking credit for our nice things and passing judgment on others for their failings. | | |
| ▲ | esikich 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This site is so fuckin out of touch with the average American I can help but get pissed off after a few beers on the weekend. The tech stuff is good, but the social/political stuff here drives me nuts. | | |
| ▲ | gonight 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As someone who grew up on food stamps, I'd fully believe the mean and median income on hackernews are six figure numbers. | | |
| ▲ | esikich an hour ago | parent [-] | | At least. And also living in a metropolis, in a burrough where SaaS is the only way of life and all of the benefits of society come from NPCs. |
| |
| ▲ | georgemcbay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This site is so fuckin out of touch with the average American I can help but get pissed off after a few beers on the weekend. The tech stuff is good, but the social/political stuff here drives me nuts. A lot of people on this site have no concept of what it is like to grow up unprivileged (they think they do, but to them that means growing up merely upper middle class as opposed to ridiculously wealthy) but as bad as it can be sometimes it has actually gotten a bit better in recent years. There used to be an even higher concentration of ultra-libertarian "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" posters who clearly never had to do that themselves to anywhere near the extent they believed they had. |
| |
| ▲ | Terr_ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > taking credit for our nice things and passing judgment on others Do you think it's more Fundamental Attribution Error [0] (not exercising empathy or an incomplete view of others' problems) or more Just World Fallacy [1] (believing the universe works a certain way)? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_fallacy | |
| ▲ | RcouF1uZ4gsC 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > We know that at some level and yet still can't help taking credit for our nice things and passing judgment on others for their failings. Is that blameworthy? | | |
| |
| ▲ | arjie 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Realistically, if these are the minimum conditions to reduce this kind of low-gain amplified damage, then I suspect that most people will rapidly conclude that the cost-benefit leans in the direction of immediately severing these people from the rest of society. Since the cost to deliver a sequence of events like you describe to everyone is extraordinary (and realistically unavailable even to the richest nations today) a more feasible solution is incarceration of people for a first offense for a sufficiently long time that they are simply not present to commit the crime again. | | | |
| ▲ | hyperhello 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My general rule for posting sarcasm is to phrase it seriously first and see if it's something I still want to post. | | | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | vostrocity 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A topic I'm interested in that is upstream of what you're saying is the propagation of meaning. If somebody has no idea what the Mona Lisa or the Statue of Liberty are, then we can't really bemoan that they would not ascribe any value to it beyond its raw material. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I could understand looking at the Mona Lisa and not being impressed that it's something considered of great value. On the other hand, the sheer size of the Statue of Liberty makes that impossible to misconstrue. |
| |
| ▲ | themafia 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They didn't ask to be born and have never been given an opportunity to approve the society they're born into. The price of non-conformance is deprivation, punishment and incarceration. We should rethink this. | |
| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This could be made a serious felony. If the thief doesn't plan for or attempt to get say, 25% of fair market value or replacement cost (whichever is higher), multiply the penalty by 5 years, no chance of parole. Though I don't know if there are enough prisons for all those stealing catalytic converters. | |
| ▲ | mslt 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’d suggest considering empathy once you get past the anger, their former selves would be equally repulsed by their behavior, and for many I expect their current selves feel similarly despite their lack of control. The villains here aren’t the broken people. | | |
| ▲ | jdross 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The villains are the people who let these people continue to commit crimes and make life worse for others in the name of empathy instead of quickly and forcefully moving them into compassionate care where they have any chance of recovering and joining the vast majority as contributors to society. | | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The villains are those of us who tolerate this kind of behavior in the name of compassion. | | |
| ▲ | TurdF3rguson 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You shouldn't tolerate the behavior, but announcing disgust for people who are struggling is just not helpful. | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Lots of people who are struggling don't become thieves. | | |
| ▲ | TurdF3rguson 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, like I said don't tolerate the behavior, but that doesn't mean every thief is an irredeemable piece of shit who doesn't deserve help or empathy. There should be something in the middle, I hope we can agree on that. We're talking about addiction and property damage here, not a homicidal psychopath. |
| |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >Somewhere between $1,360 - $6,400 of scrap value If it's a "normal" wire specification that someone else can use it was likely sold for ~50% of retail. |
| |
| ▲ | tonyarkles 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It was gas-filled presumably ultra low loss RF cable, but the thief cut it into small sections so that they could take it away. You might be right about the 50% number of they had somehow managed to steal it as a single intact spool. As-is, the station even said that they wouldn’t be able to use it even now that it’s been recovered because of fears of gas leaks. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I doubt they would attempt to sell it as is. They'd break out the copper portion and trade on that alone |
| |
| ▲ | bragr 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thieves typically burn off the insulation so it's not likely to be easily reused. |
|