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tptacek 5 hours ago

The Erin Brockovich page itself repeats the canard, on the front page, that these sites endanger ecosystems with their water consumption.

fc417fc802 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Unfortunately the entire situation is quite confusing because in addition to spanning a wide range of geographies and local utility situations there's also a wide variance in the care taken by the different players. For example I was surprised to learn of a recent ~300 MW buildout with entirely closed loop cooling (I had erroneously believed all cooling at that scale to be evaporative). Meanwhile we've got whatever xAI is doing with "mobile" generators.

petre 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The heat has to go somewhere and that is the environment. 300 MWh is enough energy to boil over 3k metric tons of water. That's 107 medium fuel trucks for perspective.

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Luckily AI data centers produce nowhere near that amount of heat. Remember the heat is waste and 300 MWh is the total draw. Some of that energy becomes heat. That ratio is somewhere like 100:1 though. Also, the waste water is only like 10F hotter than the intake. We build GW sized PP all the time and they will leak far more heat (as like on the order of 100x) than a 300 MWh AI data center. Thought there were supposed to be engineers on this site.

dantillberg 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Some of that energy becomes heat.

I'm neither for nor against, but on the physics here: basically all of the energy input as electricity is transformed to heat leaving a datacenter. Only a tiny tiny fraction is emitted as radiation (eg floodlights outside or light in fiber optics) or as kinetic energy (air moving away from fans/vents).

Computers are machines for turning electric energy into heat energy, plus some small useful side effects.

14 minutes ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

300 MW hr is approximately nothing to the broader environment. A constant gigawatt load is (off the top of my head, probably off a bit) something like 5 sq km of solar over a 24 hour period on average. Granted some of that light would otherwise be reflected but that gets us in the rough ballpark.

In local terms its a fair bit of heating but zooming out it's a drop in the bucket.

abigail95 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah it gets radiated into space

SilverElfin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it a canard? In Florida a data center drew water in an unauthorized way and the surrounding community had issues with brown water and had to go into water rationing. Even if datacenters are highly efficient, if the water supply is strained, you can pollute people’s supply by drawing wells down too far and things like that.

ajross 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, the wastewater issues can be real in some environments. It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed and mitigated. It's not like these things have the ecological impact of steel foundries or fruit orchards, but they're not parks either.

I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. Freakouts about AI (which ultimately is what this is) aren't "rational" but they're eminently "reasonable". This isn't like electrification or aviation or the internet or whatnot (technologies that had clear, tangible benefits that everyone could see and understand), there is real discussion happening, by real experts, about essentially all non-physical labor being replaced!

And... what do regular folks get from that? Talking to robots doesn't look like a quality of life improvement!

Basically we in the upper stands here are having a "Let Them Eat Cake" moment, and we should stop. Things are getting ugly.

ronsor 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though. Freakouts about AI (which ultimately is what this is) aren't "rational" but they're eminently "reasonable".

A lot of the "sneering" I see from everyone who isn't an investor or an executive is a consequence of resistance to outreach. It's very difficult to discuss subjects with people when many now interpret factual explanations as propaganda and reassurance as manipulation.

By the way, plenty of people feared electricity a great deal (and it wasn't exactly implemented safely when it was new). In the 90s, many people also thought the Internet was a temporary fad, a mere novelty that would fade in some years.

pesus 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe the issue is the "reassurance" is identical to propaganda and manipulation. It definitely doesn't help that the companies having to "reassure" people have aligned themselves with so many others that have been pushing propaganda to manipulate others for some time now. Nor does it help that many of the same companies that need to "reassure" people are also actively doing the opposite - see the billboards bragging about not hiring humans, or CEOs bragging about how AI will replace the majority of people and leave them destitute.

There's no reason for someone to trust any "reassurance" when there are so many signals indicating they shouldn't.

ToValueFunfetti 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Reassurance is identical to propaganda and manipulation insofar as all attempt to convey beliefs. Reassurance, here, should be apparently different in that it conveys true information. In the history of mankind, it has never been easier to discern between true and false information.

If people want to throw up their hands and start believing whatever feels right, they are permitted to do so. Though they have a duty not to as citizens of a democracy, they have the right to actively pursue policies based on falsehoods. Let's not pretend it's a reasonable or respectable reaction to seeing billboards.

If somebody does want to give up on research and working out the truth, please actually give up and say you don't know. Stop coming to the city council meetings and plastering "millions of gallons" on even the social medias where that's surprising.

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think the marketing about not hiring humans is mostly what it is. There are also foreign entities actively spreading propaganda. But their claims are so wildly insane they get shot down pretty quickly. So it isn't just about messaging. It is about not being hated. If they hate you, the truth doesn't really matter.

tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't see it that way at all, but then I'm a housing activist, and I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers. People just like opposing development. It's very satisfying!

When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously.

The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built. People are being hypnotized by concentrated minority interests in specific spots in the country. The only big picture thing about it is the left-populist sideshow it's created.

no-name-here 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built.

That seems very untrue - multiple areas have already banned data centers, and senators like Bernie Sanders have proposed stopping data centers nationwide. This is just the next phase of NIMBY-ism. Alternatively, source that the "data centers the industry wants are all going to get built"?

> I've seen fiercer opposition to a 4-story apartment building than to some of these data centers.

I'm guessing you're referring to rather cherry-picked data? I've seen data center opposition making even the national news, but I don't recall any '4-story apartment buildings' opposition doing so? And senators like Bernie Sanders are proposing halting data centers nationwide - are there any similar proposals to similarly outlaw such housing construction nationwide?

> People just like opposing development.… When I see a protest over a golf course opening, I'll take data center water use concerns seriously.

Agreed.

tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Of course multiple areas have already banned data centers. So what? The United States is absolutely enormous. Data center buildout --- especially for AI training --- has a much easier problem than housing does. Housing needs to be built near centers of economic activity, which means that every marginal unit of housing is likely to be infill and has to pass muster with relatively dense neighborhoods of people who hate development. Data centers tend to be sited in underutilized industrial tracts. There are lots of those around the country.

I feel like what's obviously happening here is that people have a rooting interest against AI, and highly-publicized pushes against "AI data centers" in specific areas are simply sparking joy for people.

no-name-here 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Is the argument that opposition to, and proposed bans of, data centers are only occurring on sites near dense population centers, as opposed to even covering incredibly low density sites? I'd say data center opposition goes beyond housing opposition as state-wide or even national bans have been proposed.

Many people similarly have a 'rooting interest' against public housing, public transit, even new housing in general in their area, and similarly celebrate when housing, transit, etc. get stopped. <shrug>

tptacek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That's exactly what I'm saying. This is an old story; it's just getting airplay because of the "AI" connection.

taybin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Bernie Sanders proposes a lot of things that are never implemented. I’m not sure his support is actually a useful signal of greater support.

bdangubic 3 hours ago | parent [-]

it is (unfortunately) quite the opposite, if you see what he supports there is a high likelyhood of that not happening.

cootsnuck 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The data centers the industry wants are all going to get built.

If that was the case then why are the majority of data center projects getting scrapped?

https://gizmodo.com/data-center-project-cancellations-quadru...

Why are insiders saying they only expect about 10% of data center projects to ever be completed?

Why is 2026 already shaping up to have less than half of planned data centers break ground on construction?

Local community opposition is a big driver but so is permitting and infra procurement.

https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/energy-power-supply/why-...

All of this is inconvenient to big tech's "inevitability" narratives.

ojbyrne 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That Gizmodo article says none of the things you characterize it as saying.

Except sorta - "Peter Freed, Meta’s former director of energy strategy, who spoke to Heatmap, expects only about 10% of the projects that are currently underway to ever be completed."

Perhaps that's why he's a "former director" but that doesn't really qualify as an "insider."

cootsnuck 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yea, my bad. "majority getting scrapped” was sloppy wording.

More accurate to say would be that a big chunk of the AI data center pipeline looks delayed/speculative. 16GW is slated for 2026, but only 5GW is actually under construction. https://www.sightlineclimate.com/research/data-center-outloo...

I do think it's a bit ridiculous though to not consider someone a tech insider who was a director for a decade at one of the biggest tech companies in history...

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So you are why rents are so high then.

ashdksnndck 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I do think the tech industry would be wise to do more outreach and less sneering, though.

The industry is actually doing real work on water issues in response to these complaints. Big tech companies are funding projects that will allow them to replenish more water than their datacenters consume. This isn’t actually that hard of a goal for them to meet, because as we know, the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale. Regardless, this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters.

Anyway, all of this is a distraction compared to the real problem of carbon emissions. It confuses me that environmentalists are getting sidetracked by the water use distraction here when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online.

doodlebugging 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>...the amount of water we’re talking about isn’t much on a national scale.

Water issues are always local issues. There is no national water distribution system or national aquifer.

>this will mean companies making some positive change in the communities where they build datacenters.

This will remain to be seen. So far, if it had worked out that way then there would be less vocal opposition to these data centers. Local perception seems to be that there will be nuisance to dangerous noise levels; heat islands which can cause local disruptions to weather events; closed-door agreements to build this infrastructure instead of open community involvement in the process; and other issues including concerns about excessive water usage especially in areas where there are already troubling water availability trends due to other forms of development.

>when more natural gas and coal plants are coming online.

Here in NTexas, the availability of and proximity to natural gas compression stations is key to data center siting from the ones that I have monitored. Plans seem to include construction of gas turbine generators to power the new data centers and these generators are sited on parcels very close to existing compressor stations and high-voltage power lines and small or medium local lakes.

rcpt 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's not a completely insane idea and like all things can be reasonably discussed

Actually it's a completely insane idea that can't be reasonably discussed.

cratermoon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you tell me with a straight face that this proposed and approved datacenter will not endanger the ecosystem of northwestern Utah?

O'Leary Digital Stratos Project

O'Leary Digital · Box Elder County, UT

Up to 9 GW off-grid (natural gas) AI data center campus on ~40,000 acres of private land plus 1,200 acres of military/state-owned land.

tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I really think advocating against building data centers in Box Elder County Utah kind of gives away the whole game here. The impact logic is so clearly motivated.

Have you ever been there? Or even near there? Like, driven from San Francisco to the East Coast at one point? It's a literal wasteland. It is like being on the moon.

2 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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cratermoon 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I knew someone would come out and say that. To answer your question, I have driven through, multiple times. I suggest starting with Edward Abbey’s Desert Solitaire to raise your awareness.

tptacek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I've been there. If you could pick any place in the world to site a data center, Box Elder County would be high on the list.

smegma2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What ecosystem is it endangering? Is using the land a problem? Utah has 10.5 million acres of farmland that I would think has some impact on the ecosystem too, should we stop doing that too?

cootsnuck 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Heat. 9 GW puts off a staggering amount of heat. In an already arid environment. What's the worst that can happen?

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2026/05/07/utahs-dat...

dantillberg 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> 9 GW puts off a staggering amount of heat.

For comparison, that 40,000 acres receives somewhere on the order of 40 GW solar radiation (averaging over night/day and winter/summer). Box Elder County overall receives something like 3600 GW average. There's a lot of power in that sunshine.

I remember I was surprised to learn that the heat released from burning all these fossil fuels doesn't really impact the temperature of the environment all that much. There's always just so much more radiative energy always going in and out all the time, the heat from the combustion is insignificant (or more specifically: it's quickly balanced out by increased radiative output).

DoctorOetker an hour ago | parent [-]

To generate that 9 GW of electrical energy typically about twice that amount in heat will be generated at the thermal engines converting the fuel chemical energy to electicity. Has anyone studied this 18 GW heat load at the site of electricity generation?

The total head load for consuming electrical energy of 9 GW is thus approximately 3*9 GW = 27 GW = 9 GW at the GPU's and 18 GW at the electricity generation plant.

They mention a gas plant would have to be about 7.5 x 40 acres = 300 acres.

By your calculation its 1 GW / 1000 acres of natural incident solar power; so natural solar power on 300 acres would be just 0.3 GW on the would-be plant.

Instead its dissipating 18 GW (!) 60 x higher!

That is ignoring the 9 GW on the GPU site.

Poor nations desiring developed nation level energy per capita consumption combined with developed nation exploding energy consumption for the AI rat race means humanity ogles consuming energy at such power levels that mere prompt heating approaches similar power levels and densities as GHG radiation forcing did!

In other words, even if we succeeded in phasing out all fossil fuel energy use and replace them with renewables, and even if we somehow extracted all the excess CO2 back out, we will relatively quickly replace the cause of global warming from GHG emissions to prompt heating for generating and dissipating our electric energy use.

2 Exceptions: wind energy and hopefully someday exploiting the temperature difference at ground level versus the tropopause.

Humans have made aerostats (balloons with a tether), humans have made aerostats that went much higher than the tropopause, although only in acceptable weather.

At the tropopause the temperature is about 60 degrees C colder (up to about 100 degrees C in tropical regions).

Imagine a heat loop or huge inflatable levitating heat pipe (using phase transition). The new access at ground level to a cold bath in addition to the environmental warm bath can be used to drive a thermal engine and generate electricity (day and night, winter and summer). It behaves more like baseload energy, and it helps cool the planet: the heat transported from surface level if released at the tropopause level is above about ~70% of the CO2 of the atmosphere, so there it can more quickly escape to the CMB's low temperature bath.

We could be cooling the planet while generating useful electrical energy. The first prototypes should avoid any inhabited areas by a distance at least equal to the structure height (so it doesn't cause damage to population residences). Most humans live "close" to a coast line, so place the first such structures about 15 km into the sea. Another advantage is that the sea water has a high heat capacity, is pumpable, and can provide as a very stable reference thermal hot side bath. I.e. the system shouldn't stall because it has depleted local heat in the environment, you can always pump lukewarm seawater into the device, which can also be used to freeze seawater (desalinating it, see freeze desalination). The frozen seawater can be brought to conventional energy plants to lower their cold side bath temperatures, increasing the efficiency of solar but also gas / fuel / nuclear energy plants.

None of this contradicts the laws of thermodynamics, its an engineering problem: how do we build an inflatable structure that withstands the wind shear forces, dampens structure resonances, identifying the ideal carrier for transporting the heat (a pure substance? a mixture?, ...), a group of specialists should comb through the space of options to get a rough first overview of which directions would be more or less promising than alternatives.

mmmeff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're right, we should build it in a third world country instead!

cootsnuck 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd argue we don't need to build a 9 GW data center anywhere. But that's just me.

cootsnuck 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems fairly likely that a comically gargantuan data center like Stratos would endanger the surrounding ecosystem, at a minimum.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2026/05/07/utahs-dat...

But I also think there's very little chance that they even get 1 GW up and running anytime soon, and less than 3 GW before the whole thing gets scrapped (just like plenty of the other hyperscale data center projects that keep getting shouted about).

4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
kennywinker 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because they do.

cryptoegorophy 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If water is the problem then why are we ignoring how much water beef needs? If we measure per person use it is hundreds times more than data center usage in comparison if we measure in per person consumption

kennywinker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Beef uses water, but you can eat beef.

Ai uses water, but you can’t eat ai.

Can you see the difference?

no-name-here 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

>> If water is the problem then why are we ignoring how much water beef needs? If we measure per person use it is hundreds times more than data center usage

> Ai uses water, but you can’t eat ai.

Almost all other foods don't use trillions of gallons of water like beef does. If someone's goal was to reduce water use, then shouldn't they be making at least as much noise about the non-necessary thing using far more water compared to data center's billions, not trillions, of gallons?

tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No, that logic does not make any sense whatsoever.

etchalon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cows don't steal people's jobs.

DoctorOetker an hour ago | parent [-]

The loss of income of people displaced by AI may end up eating less meat to survive.

jmye 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is this a serious comment? No one, in an environmental discussion, ignores how much water beef needs. It’s a central part of most vegan/vegetarian commentary.

But this is a conversation about data centers. It would be great if you had the capability of staying even vaguely on topic instead of spinning off into “what about” bullshit.

no-name-here 4 hours ago | parent [-]

1. Beef uses trillions of gallons of water per year, while data centers use billions - data center water use is nowhere remotely as much as beef.

2. Despite beef using far more water, is it getting anywhere remotely as much coverage as data center water use?

3. Senators like Sanders proposed stopping data center construction nationwide - have senators proposed similar nationwide bans for beef?

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can go ahead and try to do that. Politically, to say its a DOA bill, is the understatement of the century. Also, water is renewable. This entire discussion is absurd and scientifically illiterate. There is a reason why nobody says, "party of science" anymore.

kennywinker 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Also, water is renewable.

Tell that to the aquafers we’re emptying that won’t refill for generations.

Water is renewable, but not necessarily in the right place or in timely manner.

Using treated potable water to cool servers is just taxpayers subsidizing server cooling.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
BenFranklin100 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not inherently they don’t.

kennywinker 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure, but we don’t live in theory, we live in reality. Here in reality, they usually do.

alterom 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Inherently, they don't.

The way they are operated, they do.