| ▲ | granzymes 3 hours ago |
| Because no one has commented yet on the legal significance: Musk lost today because the jury found that he waited too long to bring his claims. The jury answers only yes/no questions, so we do not know their exact thoughts, but it is likely they determined that the 2019 and 2021 Microsoft deals were too similar to the 2023 Microsoft deal that was the centerpiece of Musk’s lawsuit. Musk could have brought the same lawsuit in 2019 or 2021, meaning his claims were untimely for the 3 year statute of limitations. Because the statute of limitations is a precondition, the jury was not asked to find any other facts. They may tell the press what they thought on other issues, or they may not. The judge was prepared to immediately accept the jury’s finding, and said she agreed that the jury’s decision was supported by the evidence. It is possible for Musk to appeal, but success is vanishingly unlikely. Whether Musk’s claims are barred by the statute of limitations is a quintessential question of fact, and appellate courts are extraordinarily deferential to factual findings by juries so as a practical matter it’s almost impossible to appeal this verdict. |
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| ▲ | granzymes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| My own thoughts: If I had been on the jury, I would have found against Musk on every point. His lawyers created a “3 phases of doubt” to try and sidestep the statute of limitations, but it was clearly bogus and he was on notice of OpenAI creating a for-profit in 2019. Musk was perfectly happy to have OpenAI be a for-profit, a non-profit with an attached for-profit (the current structure), or even just absorbed into Tesla. His complaints fell flat for me given the number of emails where he said that a non-profit was likely a mistake. This is technical, but Musk clearly never created a charitable trust, which was a precondition for his claims. His funds were donated for general use by OpenAI, not for any specific use that would allow him to claim breach of charitable trust. Also, all of his funds were spent by no later than 2020 which is before his alleged breach in 2023. Musk unreasonably delayed bringing this case until the success of ChatGPT and starting a competing AI company, and he had unclean hands because he attempted to sabotage OpenAI repeatedly by poaching its key staff while on the board. |
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| ▲ | DoesntMatter22 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Musk should have just made another company and then he’d have another 500 billion but he had that mistake and now it’s over. Then again we’ll see how well open ai does over the long term | | |
| ▲ | granzymes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Evidence at trial showed that Musk attempted to pursue AGI at Tesla starting in 2017 before he left the board of OpenAI. He was unsuccessful in that endeavor and later restarted his efforts in xAI after the success of ChatGPT. | | |
| ▲ | big_toast an hour ago | parent [-] | | Musk leaves the board in 2018 I think. And something happens in DX-754 where they've pivoted to AI in SpaceX around then too. I had a lot of trouble telling what "AI" meant in late 2017 at Tesla. --- Sept 1, 2017 DX-669: Funding paused confirmation. Elon is still on the board for a while. DX-707 specifies the board as of Sept 26, 2017, and even suggests adding Shivon, Jared, Sam Teller. Jan 31, 2018 DX-748: Elon is still discussing things with Greg. Elon: "The only paths I can think of are a major expansion of OpenAI and a major expansion of Tesla AI. Perhaps both simultaneously" Feb 3, 2018 DX-754: Sam Teller says Elon "just suggested we use SpaceX email for AI stuff so switching over to that" Feb 4, 2018 DX-755: Sam Teller and Shivon Zilis discuss disabling Openai Feb 20, 2018 DX-770: Elon officially leaves board (first document I see specifying) |
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| ▲ | andrei_says_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I sometimes wonder, what does one need a second 500 billion that the first 500 billion is not enough for? | | |
| ▲ | knicholes an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Getting to Mars, it would seem. | | |
| ▲ | hdndjsbbs an hour ago | parent [-] | | Does anyone seriously still believe this? I thought as a society we had realized Musk is simply BSing whatever he feels like until it becomes untenable. | | |
| ▲ | dogscatstrees an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh, you mean like: Solar Roof:
https://electrek.co/2026/05/14/tesla-solar-roof-promise-vs-r... Tesla Full Self Driving:
https://electrek.co/2026/05/18/musk-unsupervised-fsd-widespr... Hyperloop / Boring Company mass-transit vision Mars settlement timelines X as an everything app | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Does anyone seriously still believe this? I do. It’s not his singular focus. But he continues to personally invest himself in pushing the boundaries of human spacefaring capability. That goal seems more personally invested to him that it does to e.g. Bezos, who mostly has a rocket company to look cool. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I know there's a risk when Musk's name comes up that everyone takes "all against" or "all for" approach - very polarising figure. But I see a lot of that announcement, and the others someone else pointed to as his "aspirational, but ultimately never going to happen" goals - whether he believes the claims are achievable, or not, he says these things to energise people to working/paying for him to try It costs him little to nothing to say, and other people's time, effort, and capital to try (and succeed/fail) Tesla is falling to pieces now, and SpaceX is getting loaded up with completely unrelated projects (xAI) in order to try and make it look saleable (I guess) - it's very difficult to see the Mars announcement as anything but hype. |
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| ▲ | DoesntMatter22 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To build more cool stuff. Would be great if he did neurolink for cancer | |
| ▲ | lotsofpulp an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because money is just a proxy for power, and the goal is not to have cash, it is to have power. Perhaps via being able to make decisions at various businesses, or being able to travel to a different planet, or being able to influence other people, etc. Could also partly be a curiosity to see what one is capable of, or maybe wanting to be known for helming an organization that accomplishes xyz. | |
| ▲ | lovich an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because he is an addict and one of his addictions is money | | |
| ▲ | testplzignore an hour ago | parent [-] | | Maybe he trying to collect every waifu from every gacha game. That would get expensive in a hurry. |
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| ▲ | robocat an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why did he need a second 250 billion after the first 250 billion? Makes me think of a inverted Zeno's paradox. Why do you need an extra dollar? I can answer for myself: New Zealand plans to tax the shit out of anyone that has more[A]. You need a fukton more than median wealth to be able to protect yourself against your own government. The type of person that enjoys chasing money doesn't stop. [A] via capital gains taxes and wealth taxes. Also one needs an excessive amount more to handle progressive taxation and means testing. | | |
| ▲ | KaiserPro 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > I can answer for myself: New Zealand plans to tax the shit out of anyone that has more[A]. New Zeeland is an outlier in that it doesn't have capital gains tax. Its not the end of the world to have captial gains tax. | |
| ▲ | rolph an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Why did he need a second 250 billion after the first 250 billion" because thats another 250 billion less for a competitor to use against you. | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why did you turn that into a whine about a tax that exists in 31 of 38 OECD economies? Go to Australia where you pay a stamp duty for buying (to pay for infra) and a CGT for selling Edit: Changed stamp tax to stamp duty | |
| ▲ | jamiek88 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why did he need a second 250 billion after the first 250 billion? Because billionaires are mentally unwell. | |
| ▲ | danaris 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, no, this is bullshit. You can't just apply One Simple Rule like this ("more money is always better" / "more money never makes a difference"). There is, objectively, an amount of money above which another dollar, or another billion, will never make a meaningful difference in your overall lifestyle[0]. The amount isn't a single bright line, but like with so many things, there's an area below it where extra money unquestionably improves your quality of life, and an area above it where it unquestionably doesn't. [0] unless "your lifestyle" involves manipulating major governments and controlling the way people the world over think, which I wouldn't consider a legitimate part of "lifestyle" |
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| ▲ | bambax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm unfamiliar with the US legal system but do they really need a jury and a trial to determine whether the claims are barred by the statute of limitations? Couldn't this be decided by a judge before trial? |
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| ▲ | compiler-guy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Part of the Statute of Limitations isn't just on when he filed the claim, but when he found out or should have found out, by reasonable diligence that he had a claim at all. So the question before the jury has a significant component of "Should he have found out by this time?" Which is a question of fact, and facts are typically decided by juries, in the US at least. The two parties can agree together to let a judge decide facts like this, but generally, if one or the other party wants it to go to a jury, it does. I'm guessing part of Musk's strategy was to have it go to the jury, which are often seen as easier to manipulate than judges, especially when a case is weak. Or perhaps his team already knew this particular judge would be inclined to rule against him, so did the next best thing. | |
| ▲ | CSMastermind 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Elon argued that even though the events in question took place sometime between 2017 and 2020 OpenAI intentionally hid the information from him until 2022-2023 which is why he wasn't able to file the lawsuit until 2024. That's what the jury found against - they said he was reasonably informed enough to have brought the suit earlier and thus the 3 year clock should start ticking in 2020 not 2023. | |
| ▲ | ai-x 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's like saying can't the Judge decide who the killer was when he literally saw the video of shooting. | |
| ▲ | mrhottakes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US, judges make determinations of law, but juries (in a jury trial at least) must evaluate the evidence to make findings of fact. So the jury would need to make a finding as to when the statute of limitations started ticking based on the evidence, and the judge then makes the legal determination that the statutory period has lapsed. | |
| ▲ | cwmma 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the American system juries figure out questions of fact and judges figure out questions of law. In this case I guess the question was 'when did the incident actually happen' with Elon arguing it was later then Altman. | |
| ▲ | prepend 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In this case the judge determined that it did require a trial and refused to dismiss based on statute of limitations. |
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| ▲ | jmyeet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For people unfamiliar, generally speaking in trial courts the jury is the finder of facts and the judge is the finder of law (yes, there are bench trials where the judge does both). As an aside, appeals courts deal in legal issues (ie statutory interpretations and constitutional issues). So not being within the statute of limitations is typically a legal issue so what must've happened here is the jury would've been asked if the earlier OpenAI-MS deals were substantially similar to the latest deal. I can't find the verdict form or the jury instructions but I'll bet that was the key issue the jury decided. |
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| ▲ | Arodex 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Musk could have brought the same lawsuit in 2019 or 2021, meaning his claims were untimely for the 3 year statute of limitations. Why is a hypothetical ground for this decision? "You didn't complain immediately the first time you got robbed, therefore all the robbing since then is covered by a statute of limitation". |
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| ▲ | granzymes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The statute of limitations exists to prevent unreasonable delay, to protect defendants from prejudice due to loss of evidence to the passage of time, and to recognize that people who are injured tend to complain immediately and not sit on their claims. This case demonstrates why. Musk only complained after OpenAI was commercially successful with ChatGPT and after he started a competing effort. He repeatedly said “I do not know” and “I do not recall” on the stand, and argued that the passage of time made it hard for him to remember facts that would have been helpful for OpenAI. | | |
| ▲ | Arodex 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I know why statutes of limitation exist. I was wondering why it applied here. Apparently it wasn't completely straightforward, as nine jurors were needed to reach a decision on that point, instead of a single judge or even clerk. | | |
| ▲ | granzymes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Whether the claim accrued before the statute of limitations expired is a question of fact, and is therefore reserved for the fact-finder which in this case was the jury. | | |
| ▲ | toast0 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | IMHO, whether (and which) statue of limitations applies is a question of law, whether said time limit has passed is a question of fact. I'd like to read the jury instructions and verdict, but I didn't see a link to them anywhere. I guess there could be a question of fact in a case where the statues of limitation differ for different injuries, and the factual question is which injury was it. | | |
| ▲ | granzymes 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You are correct that which statute of limitations applies is a question of law. If facts are undisputed, that is the end of the issue. In this case, the facts were disputed, and the jury found for the defendants. The jury instructions are public and the final jury form will be published, likely later this week. I can tell you that the instructions told the jury to decide whether Musk could have brought his case before 2021. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | peterfirefly 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It seems to me like justice should be about right vs wrong and illegal vs legal, and not “did you fill out form 27B/6 on time?” Dismissing a case on these kinds of trivial procedural grounds seems like the court just doesn’t want to do its job. | | |
| ▲ | granzymes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The statute of limitations is not a trivial issue. Defendants have rights just as much as plaintiffs do, and our justice system does not allow plaintiffs to unreasonably delay in bringing their claims. | | |
| ▲ | bobthepanda 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | there are also practical concerns at play with a statute of limitations, where evidence is more likely to disappear and the trial would've devolved into a he said/she said situation. |
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| ▲ | dbt00 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If it was wrong in 2019, why did he wait 7 years to do something about it? The passage of time makes it harder to have a fair trial, as shown by the number of times Elon said I don't know or I don't recall about conversations that would have been recent in 2019 but are now long (or strategically) forgotten. | | | |
| ▲ | mrhottakes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Bringing claims promptly so they can be adjudicated is vital for justice. What would you think if you were sued for something that happened decades ago when the time to correct it was soon after the instigating event? | |
| ▲ | brookst 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So you’d be OK if, say, a rental car sued you for putative damage to a car you rented 15 years ago? Limiting time that an action can be brought is critical to having a fair trial. | |
| ▲ | danso 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How do you imagine justice functioning in a system that lacks a statute of limitations? | |
| ▲ | geodel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It doesn't seem trivial at all. Allowing to flout procedure specially in case of very rich , powerful people with vast resources at their disposal would feel rewarding further for their cluelessness as if they are not already heavily rewarded by rigged system. | |
| ▲ | albedoa an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I for one am happy that we have and enforce statutes of limitations. Calling it a kind of "trivial procedural grounds" is wild. > the court just doesn’t want to do its job. What do you think its job is. |
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| ▲ | mrhottakes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the US, court clerks do not decide cases. This was a jury trial, so the jury was required to do its job. |
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| ▲ | joshkel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://localnewsmatters.org/2026/05/16/musk-v-altman-week-3... has a good explanation of the legalities: "If the jury determines that at any time before those dates, Musk either knew — or had or should have known — that he had a claim that he could bring, then his suit was brought too late. The consequence of being too late is swift and absolute. If the lawsuit was filed late for a particular claim, that claim is out of the case; if it was too late for all of Musk’s claims, the lawsuit is over." That's where the question of fact (i.e., the requirement for a jury decision) came in: "What was the statute of limitations?" is a question of law, but "When should Musk have known that OpenAI was moving too much toward for-profit?" is a question of fact (and, here, determines whether the statute of limitations applies). | |
| ▲ | chipsrafferty 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are multiple reasons why statutes of limitations exist, one of them being that the further away in time, the harder it is to prove evidence. Witnesses may have died, or their memory may be more faulty. | | |
| ▲ | hnfong 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Also criminal liability is generally handled differently. Some jurisdictions have no limit, and where the limits exist for criminal liability, limitations on serious crimes can be much longer than the civil ones. |
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| ▲ | kstrauser 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because there has to be some point. It's unjust to allow someone to sue 30 years later, as everyone would have a sword of Damocles hanging over their head waiting for the right moment to strike. And in general, if you didn't realize you were robbed for 3 years, perhaps it's the case that you weren't actually robbed. | | |
| ▲ | skeptic_ai 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | So if I exchange your Rolex with a fake one and then you try to sell after 3 years and you notice it’s fake, it’s fine for you? | | |
| ▲ | granzymes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The statute of limitations takes into account when the plaintiff discovered or with reasonable diligence should have discovered their injury. In this case, the jury found that Musk knew or should have known of his alleged injury prior to 2021. | |
| ▲ | eftychis 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is the notion of equitable estoppel, that would *perhaps*, depending on the facts, apply which stops a defendant, who for instance concealed or committed certain acts of fraud, from raising the statute of limitations defense. Edit: to augment the sibling comment. |
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| ▲ | hn_acc1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is not a robbery, though. Not in the "break in and steal stuff from your house multiple times" situation. Legally, each of those are separate events, and one doesn't really affect the other unless it's all the same person, and the repetition is used to get a stronger case, etc. | |
| ▲ | jmyeet 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are several legal principles in play here. Note that these are civil trial issues and when you're talking about "robbing", you're likely talking about a criminal issue. These are: 1. Estoppel. If a party relies on your conduct then you can lose the right to sue over it; 2. Laches. This is a defense against prejudicial conduct, typically by waiting too long to take action; 3. Waiver. Your conduct can waive your right to sue. Imagine you live with someone and they don't pay half of the rent so you cover it. At some point your continued conduct means you lose the right to sue; and 4. The statute of limitations. Some claims simply have to be brought within a certain period. How this applies can be really complex. For example, we saw this in Trump's fraud convictions in New York. His time in office, away from the jurisdiction, essentially suspended the statute of limitations. Some crimes like murder have no statute of limitations. Others have unreasonably short statutes of limitations. For example, probably nobody can be charged in relation to sex trafficking in the Epstein saga because the statute of limitations is often 5 years with such crimes. This is unreasonable (IMHO) because often the victims are children and unable to make a criminal complaint. It's also worth adding that not all legal systems have such wide-ranging statutes of limitation as the US does. Founding principles of those other legal systems is that the government shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted for prosecuting criminal conduct. The US system ostensibly favors "timely" prosecution. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
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| ▲ | john_builds 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| thanks for the snippet |
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| ▲ | bflesch 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If it's thrown out on a technicality then Musk got fleeced by his lawyers - good for them. |