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usrbinenv 2 hours ago

I understand why in 1979 and perhaps until mid 1990s capability OS architecture might have been irrelevant and excessive. But after that, it sounds like the only architecture suitable for the internet age, where you can download and run anything from anywhere. Instead, we're stuck with legacy systems, which now contain layers of layers of abstractions and security measures. User rights, anti-virus software, vetting (signatures, hashes, app-store verification) - all become obsolete or near-obsolete in a capability-based system where a program simply doesn't have access to anything by default. Part of the appeal of virtualization is also due to the fact that it isolates programs (for instance, I only run npm inside Docker container these days, because chances are some package will contain malware at some point).

Part of it is inertia, but part of it is ignorance. Enthusiasts spend tons of money and effort building another GPU enabled terminal or safe programming languages - and maybe that's fine, but I wonder what we could've accomplished if people were simply aware what a well-designed capability OS could be like, because this is literally the only OS paradigm in existence (that I know of) that's even worth any serious effort.

mike_hearn an hour ago | parent | next [-]

None of those things become obsolete with capabilities.

You still need code signing because users need to be able to grant privileges in a way that sticks across upgrades. The object they want to privilege isn't a set of files on disk but a logical app as defined by (more or less) a brand name+app name even as it changes over time.

You still need antivirus software because users can be tricked into giving capabilities to programs that appear legit but are actually malicious.

Modern operating systems (iOS, Android) are capability oriented operating systems to the extent that makes sense. For some reason there's a meme that says capabilities are a magic wand that solves all security problems, but it's not the case.

jdougan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you go through old CS OS texts on the matter, they really didn't have the same understanding of capabilities then as the later object-capabilities (ocap) model would introduce. Typically they would show an access control matrix, note that acls were rows and capabilities columns and note that they are duals of one another. They're the same, acls are easier to manage, done.

OP is arguably the first paper that introduces ocaps. Some of the issues are discussed in "Capability Myths Demolished" https://papers.agoric.com/assets/pdf/papers/capability-myths...

jkhdigital an hour ago | parent [-]

I’m not going to argue against much of the content of this paper, but it should be pointed out that their argument in the middle section against the “confinement myth” seems pretty bogus. They say that you can isolate the capability read/write resource from the data read/write resource, but… this makes absolutely no sense. Bits are bits. If you assume some out-of-band isolation of capability distribution then you’ve changed the game, but even that isn’t enough for me to believe that isolation is possible.

haunter 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it sounds like the only architecture suitable for the internet age, where you can download and run anything from anywhere

Wasn’t that the reason why Microsoft went allout against Java? Write once, run anywhere. JVM was a “trojan horse” and theoretically could have dominated the world.

usrbinenv 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't mean it in the Java way. I meant that whatever operating system you're on, you can download random programs from the internet (compiled specifically for your OS or portable) and run it on your machine. It doesn't matter what they're written in or how they're run, it's possible on any OS connected to the internet and an OS with capabilities as first class citizens would isolate any program by default, denying it access to anything by default and severely limiting program's ability to cause harm, intentionally or unintentionally.

myaccountonhn an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why do signatures/hashes/app-store verification become obsolete with a capability-based system?

If a binary has the capability to withdraw money from my account, I don't want that capability given to just any binary.

usrbinenv an hour ago | parent [-]

In case of updating the binary, yes, you generally want to make sure it comes from the same source and therefore cannot do damage to things it already has access to. But when you install a new program, it shouldn't have access to any resources other than the ones it creates itself, so there's no need to sign it. Further more, when installing a new program, you still have to download/import the pubkey to verify the signature from somewhere, so it's almost meaningless on the first installation. Signatures wouldn't be obsolete, but they also wouldn't be the only line of defense. Furthermore, updating can now be performed by the program itself and the program might already contain the pubkey needed to check the validity of updates.

Joel_Mckay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Market has spoken, and people use standard consumer CPU/GPU-bodge architecture in cloud data centers. Sure there are a few quality of life features different from budget retail products, but we abandoned what Sun solved with a simple encrypted mmu decades ago.

The paper adds little to TCSEC/"Orange Book"/FOLDOC publications. Yet the poster doesn't deserve all the negative karma.

On a consumer CPU/GPU/NPU, software just isn't going to be enough to fix legacy design defects. Have a great day. =3

fsflover an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It looks like you you may be interested in Qubes OS, security oriented operating system relying on strong, hardware-assisted virtualization: https://qubes-os.org. My daily driver, can't recommend it enough.

usrbinenv an hour ago | parent [-]

I know about it, but I'm not interested in QubeOS approach. It's VMs all the way down, while what I'm talking about is no VMs and capabilities as first class citizens and no vurtualization.

cosmicriver 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I am also surprised that capabilities weren't more widely implemented after mobile OSes demonstrated they are practical. I know Windows made a move in that direction with UAC but had to soften it due to user alert fatigue. So I guess having no legacy apps and a centralized repository helps.

I've recently been looking into Guix SD as a solution. Its package management is designed to keep programs independent of each other, so containers are cheap and lightweight. Trying out untrusted software is as easy as `guix shell --container --pure --no-cwd [program]`, which blocks access to the network, file system, and environment variables. Right now I'm adding more advanced capability management: limits on CPU, memory, storage space, network use, etc.

fsflover an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What is wrong about virtualization? It allows to run all existing software, it doesn't restrict the owner of the device, it is extremely flexible and reliable. And it can be fast, too.

Joel_Mckay an hour ago | parent [-]

see other comment, the author describes some issues with current hardware virtualization. kvm is also pretty good, but not perfect... and completely irrelevant with GPU pass-through enabled. =3

fsflover an hour ago | parent [-]

Which other approach to security do you consider reliable? Through correctness? Through obscurity?

https://blog.invisiblethings.org/2008/09/02/three-approaches...

Joel_Mckay an hour ago | parent [-]

Publicly documented encrypted mmu, as it is the only practical way to isolate contexts on parallel cores.

Or some exotic processor no one would ever sell successfully. =3

Joel_Mckay an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Qubes OS was also shown to have inherent hardware virtualization sandbox vulnerabilities described by Joanna Rutkowska in an interesting lecture.

There is likely a PoC around someplace if people dig a bit. =3

fsflover an hour ago | parent [-]

Are talking about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_(software)

It happened in 2006 and never happened after that. I would consider it as secure as it gets.

Joel_Mckay 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sorry, can't recall the exact lecture... It was only interesting as I was looking at a toy project to see if metastability issues were solvable. Practically speaking, it only proved the folks at Sun were very smart people choosing an encrypted mmu. =3