| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago |
| Yup, it’s called a brain drain and it’s why until recently America held a vice grip on groundbreaking research and its commercialization. |
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| ▲ | slg 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Historians looking back at this era are going to struggle to understand why we made the decisions we did. |
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| ▲ | brianjlogan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Lots of historical precedent for an intellectual elite ignoring the perception and needs of the common folk leading to an uprising. I'd imagine every great(in scale/importance) uprising/political tumult had some aspect of "but they're ruining everything!" Everything for intellectuals and people with ties to the system that was functioning for that minority. Coal miners don't care that international students aren't coming to the US anymore. That's not an important factor for them. Edit: My point here is that you don't need hindsight to see how this aligns with historic precedent. | | |
| ▲ | Arodex 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Confederates' common folks tried to burn the USA to the ground to save their inalienable right to own slaves. Who will listen to the "perception and needs" of the racist, misogynistic common folks who want to impose their religious liberty (by banning abortion) and and elevate their financial situation (by pushing downward brown and black people)? (The GOP, that's who.) And don't you tell me it's a minority, when less than a week after the Supreme Court made the VRA null in practice, half a dozen states are rushing to eliminate any black representation. The whole GOP in those states (who already found a way to practice slavery through their carceral system - yes, there are black people picking cotton under the guard of armed white people on horses right now, today) is unanimous in erasing any power from black people. It is their first and foremost priority right now, despite everything else going on. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Confederates' common folks tried to burn the USA to the ground to save their inalienable right to own slaves Something I learned at The Old Slave Mart Museum in Charleston [1] is that Southern slaveowners were almost all terifically leveraged. Slaves were purchased predominantly with borrowed money (from, I might add, the North). And slaves were expensive, making up a significant if not dominating fraction of estates' assets. For Southern elites, therefore, abolition was an existential question. It meant bankruptcy and poverty, with insult added to injury in their creditors being Northerners. To my knowledge (and I'm no expert in this) the question of abolition paired with debt forgiveness was never seriously discussed by the Union. So yes, Confederate racism absolutely condemns its common folk. But even a moderately well-read Southern commoner would understand that abolition meant financial crisis, taking out their communities' largest tax payers, donors, consumers and employers in one swoop. I didn't walk away from the Museum sympathetic to slavery. But I did become more sympathetic to the South; in particular, to their bewildering decisions to continue prosecuting a war they were so very obviously, from a history textbook's perspective, losing. (To be clear, slavery is wrong. The South seceding was stupid. Not suing for peace after Gettysburg and Vicksburg stupider still.) [1] https://theoldslavemartmuseum.org | | |
| ▲ | Arodex 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And yet once the South lost and slavery was banned, the financial crisis didn't happen... It also doesn't explain what happened after the civil war: the KKK and Jim Crow. The only possible explanation for these is... |
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| ▲ | Levitz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Calling out the GOP for imposing racism, sexism and ideology in a thread about US universities is certainly a choice. | |
| ▲ | Zigurd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We need to finish Reconstruction. That sounds idealistic, even pie in the sky unrealistic. But we could certainly measure progress in that direction: US incarceration rates are insanely high, and the prison industrial complex is modern slavery. We would know victory when we put fewer people in prison than China, for example. That's not the only symptom, or the only measure of progress. But it would be a good start. | |
| ▲ | noosphr an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The French revolted because bread was too expensive then guillotined more than half of their best and brightest. I guess democracy was a mistake and we need to get back to inbread monarchy instead of the blood thirsty unwashed masses. | | |
| ▲ | Arodex an hour ago | parent [-] | | Democracy is a mistake, which is why we have Republics, with rules and constitutions. Not "anything you can get a slim majority to vote for, once". | | |
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| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Grad students outnumber coalminers 70:1, if they're roughly half international which another comment claims, that's still a big difference. | | |
| ▲ | slg 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The way "coal miners" are discussed would also likely be something that puzzles historians. There are approximately 45,000 coal miners in the US, that's roughly equivalent to the combined enrollment of Harvard and MIT. There are more university students in the relatively small city of Cambridge, Massachusetts than there are people mining coal in the US and yet we have to pretend the latter are a constituency worth considering. | | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > yet we have to pretend the latter are a constituency worth considering The Clines, Justices and even Manchins have money. The miners are almost irrelevant. | |
| ▲ | metalforever an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am a programmer that comes from a family of coal miners. They don't actually consider that constituency, its just a game to win a swing state. |
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| ▲ | dxdm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is historical precedent for uprisings. Those are usually messy and do not tend to leave most people doing the uprising better off. Much more precedent for new elites putting themselves into a position of power while purporting to be channeling a popular uprising on behalf and for the benefit of the "common folk", who again do not end up better off for it, often quite the opposite. It's sad and frustrating to see this play out again and again. As you say, you don't need hindsight to see how it aligns with history. | |
| ▲ | Ar-Curunir 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The professors, graduate students, and staff (not admins) are all working class. They are not some kind of elite in society. The median professor makes less than, say, an electrician. I am a professor in a good school, and I could probably triple my pay by going to industry. This propaganda needs to stop. | |
| ▲ | exitb 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > intellectual elite ignoring the perception and needs of the common folk Isn’t that what the common folk chose? Was some of that not clear before the election? |
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| ▲ | layer8 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They might struggle understanding why the decision-makers were elected, though maybe not even that. It’s well-documented why the decisions are being made. Decisions being bad doesn’t mean that they aren’t perfectly explainable. | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Or they'll just say "History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes."[1] [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802602/ | |
| ▲ | Zigurd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Some of "we" were whipped into a frenzy of resentment against science, culture, and awareness of our mixed bag of history. That's how those decisions were enabled. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Eh, do we struggle with Caligula? He’s seen as he was—a joke. I imagine this era will be seen similarly unless we manage to capstone the era with nukes. | | |
| ▲ | notahacker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We'd probably struggle to understand Caligula if he'd been popularly elected after he went mad by an electorate that got to listen to his madness on television... | | |
| ▲ | zamfi 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | On its face this sounds like an indictment of an electorate. But I think it's actually a much deeper indictment of the incumbents who couldn't present a vision more appealing than the "madness on television". | | |
| ▲ | csoups14 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course incumbents are going to be supportive of the system as it was and is, they're incumbents. You can't blame a person in power for maintaining a system giving them power any more than you can blame a bee for pollinating a flower. It's in their nature. The electorate misidentified the solution to their problems. Voters squarely hold the blame in my opinion. You can't vote for an arsonist and then complain when they set fire to everything. Leftists spend their time complaining online and disengaging from the political system instead of voting in primaries against incumbents. Independents and conservatives vote against their own interests consistently while keeping in power a party that is destroying our system of government. | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, people act like everything was peachy until Trump decided to run, and then people went crazy and voted for him for some unknowable reason. No, things were pretty fucked before Trump. We had decades of our "leaders" in Washington treating the people with contempt and making decisions for personal benefit, rather than what benefits the people. We had bribery, I mean lobbying, behind a ton of the laws that got passed. And that's without even getting into the tyrannical stuff, like the Patriot act, the NSA spying, etc. No, the government was pretty blatantly not serving the people's interests when Trump came along. That doesn't make Trump a good solution to the problem, but nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves". It would be surprising if that promise didn't resonate with people. | | |
| ▲ | retsibsi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > but nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves" Sort of, but that was always a pretty obvious tack to take, and I don't think there was ever a shortage of would-be leaders willing to play that role. So we're still left with the question of why the voters chose the most obviously untrustworthy guy to play it. | | |
| ▲ | pesus an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think there is a shortage of would-be leaders like that though, that's the problem. Or at least would be leaders that gained any real traction. The only other one in the past decade was Bernie. Unfortunately for the past 3 elections, it essentially came down to the obviously untrustworthy "outsider" vs the ultimate establishment candidate. For a lot of people, it's as simple as that. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves Which is ironic, given Trump has been pretty great for anyone who is rich or well connected. |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What if the electorate is so stupid that what appeals to them is ruinous? What if the electorate is so stupid that it simply votes against women in order to affirm their personal desires to not be at bottom of the socioeconomic rankings, however delusional those may be? |
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| ▲ | slg 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | An emperor choosing a bad heir is much easier to explain than the general population of a democracy choosing this. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Maybe Athens and Alcibiades is a better example? Or the Carthaginians being Carthiginians. |
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| ▲ | bflesch 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting comparison. From the Wikipedia [1]: > For the early part of his reign, he is said to have been "good, generous, fair and community-spirited", but increasingly self-indulgent, cruel, sadistic, extravagant, and sexually perverted thereafter, an insane, murderous tyrant who demanded and received worship as a living god, humiliated the Senate, and planned to make his horse a consul. [...] > During his brief reign, Caligula worked to increase the unconstrained personal power of the emperor, as opposed to countervailing powers within the principate. [...] > He had to abandon an attempted invasion of Britain, and the installation of his statue in the Temple in Jerusalem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I, Claudius does a solid fictionalization of the man. (Suetonius if you’re craving drier.) | | |
| ▲ | floren 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Agreed, it's my 2026 book of the year despite being written in the 30s |
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| ▲ | schainks 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It seems pretty cut and dry to me: Boomers I know today still rave about Regan-era policies and how good they were for everyone, although I'm not sure what "everyone" they are referring to in that sentence. Regan-era deregulation, cutting of social spending, and favoring asset-based versus wage based economic growth certainly laid the groundwork for where we are with today's K-shaped economy. | |
| ▲ | dfedbeef 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I certainly am | |
| ▲ | gosub100 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There will be no more historians. Their jobs will be lost to AI. | |
| ▲ | justin66 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On the contrary, populism and its effects are well understood by historians. This is just another wave. | |
| ▲ | outside2344 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Did you not consider the 5 second dopamine hit I got from owning the libs? | |
| ▲ | jalapenoj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Like MIT’s decision to buddy up with Epstein? | | |
| ▲ | gosub100 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Or finding out that he was just the tip of a giant iceberg that corrupted every square inch of our government. |
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| ▲ | Bud 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | andix 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The people decided that this sucks and have spoken. Dear god, make America stupid again! |
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| ▲ | busterarm 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | So you're suggesting our systems should be less democratic, then? Maybe opposing points of view should pick better candidates that will actually win elections. That's how it works, right? | | |
| ▲ | nkoren 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are many ways that America could be more democratic, and simultaneously produce less stupid results: 1. Eliminate / work around the electoral college system, which makes it so that people in the most diverse, educated, and economically-productive parts of the country have dramatically less voting power than a small minority of people who live in more homogeneous, less educated, and less economically-productive areas. This would significantly change the messaging needed to win. 2. Eliminate first-pass-the-post voting, which encourage candidates with extreme views, eliminate anything other than (largely false) political binaries, make it possible to win elections while receiving a minority of the votes, and make it so that the only viable strategy is to vote for the lesser evil rather than somebody you actually want. 3. Get the money out of politics. Make untraceably-funded super-PACs illegal. 4. Gerrymandering should be super fucking illegal. Other places do this. They're more democratic than the US, and while they still frequently elect stupid politicians, none of those are as bottom-of-the-barrel as what the US is able to scrape together. | | |
| ▲ | rangestransform 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | re:2, proportional representation systems oftentimes have more extremist parties elected, they’re just severely kneecapped by not having enough votes to do anything extremist | | |
| ▲ | busterarm 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Except that they can hold your coalition government hostage by making you concede on their pet issue or leave the coalition and force an election. |
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| ▲ | coryrc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Our systems need to be MORE democratic! First Pass The Post is democratic, but the worst way of it. In most districts, 40-49% of voters are disenfranchised by gerrymandering. Mixed Member Proportional is far more representative. If you assume certain minority groups vote as a bloc, then you can't gerrymander them away like our current system does. The proportion of people not getting representation is capped by 1/number_of_reps. The whole "republicans in Senate stop the government from doing anything" needs to end. Parliamentary systems means the legislative body and head of state agree to work together. Our system means deadlock most of the time. Finally, "senior members" of the parties in both houses are the only ones who decide what bills can be voted on. That's not democratic. Every member should be able to bring at least some bills up for an up-or-down vote. Make them vote down "healthcare for veterans" instead of killing it in committee or amending it to add "only if you strip women of bodily autonomy". | | |
| ▲ | dh2022 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Actually a much better and easier solution to gerrymandering would be to increase the number of House representatives to be the same proportion of population it was in 1776. There will be roughly 15,000 representatives in the House. Gerrymander that!!! | | |
| ▲ | coryrc 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1. That doesn't solve the Senate problem. The Supreme Court has failed to uphold the 10th amendment and we should stop pretending we're actually 55 mini countries. 2. They're probably up for the challenge. But also, that still doesn't solve the disenfranchisement much. My idiot neighbor with the Trump banner (in our 100% Democratic city and county -- Western Washington) will never have his vote make a difference. But if he could combine his vote with some fellow idiots out east, then they could pick the person that most represents them. And either that person will learn to compromise or they can just sit out while others do advance legislation. Just like in better republics. |
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| ▲ | busterarm 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We're (at least) 10 years into this mess now and still everyone is focused on restructuring our systems and prosecutions instead of putting forward a platform that broadly appeals to enough Americans to decisively win elections. What I said applies to both parties. We're not really all that different but all the incentives align towards pleasing extremists. Do you really need any more evidence of this than people getting shot and people/press generally being okay with it? Anything you build can be exploited against you when you're on the other side of the power balance. The solution is truly moving politics to the center. | | |
| ▲ | magicalist 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Anything you build can be exploited against you when you're on the other side of the power balance. You're responding to someone who's explaining to you that this is exactly the problem. If an extremist can do whatever they want if they happen to excite people with a "platform that broadly appeals to enough Americans", then the problem is structural, and has to be addressed there, or literally everything you do and have can be undone by the next moron that riles people up again. | | |
| ▲ | busterarm 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You raced over the key word in that sentence. Anything. Your patches will be the sources of your next exploits. | | |
| ▲ | coryrc 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No. A language with checked arrays can never have a buffer overrun like C arrays can. Some things are better. Game theory demonstrates this. | | |
| ▲ | busterarm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Some things are better but in the case of political systems, you typically can't prove that ahead of time. Especially when the suggestion is to talk about changing a bunch of variables at once. That's akin to a revolution, which historically work out badly for the people clamoring for it. | | |
| ▲ | coryrc an hour ago | parent [-] | | There's already a revolution going on and we're losing. They stacked the courts. The blood of innocents in the streets and ICE prisons. Either we overhaul the system that got us to this point or we concede. I'm tired of dumbasses in Montana having 50x the vote in the Senate and 4x vote on the POTUS as a Californian. That's not democratic. |
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| ▲ | HDThoreaun an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | C is not in any way objectively bad because buffer overflows are possible. Any method you use to check for them comes with costs |
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| ▲ | coryrc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Our systems are highly undemocratic. A vote in Wyoming is at least an order-of-magnitude more impactful than one in California. > all the incentives align towards pleasing extremists Systems create the incentive! Changing the system changes the incentives and is the only way we can reduce extremism. | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you really need any more evidence of this than people getting shot and people/press generally being okay with it? Democrats who push gun control at the cost of everything else -- such as the possibility of turning Texas blue -- are a big reason why the party lacks power to influence anything else. |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe it’s time to split the country? We are so polarized with very different visions about the future and what is needed to reach and increase prosperity. Let Mississippi be Mississippi with Texas and Florida, let California find its own way with New York and Washington. Democracy is fine, but we are just too divided and either side thinks the other side is dragging all of us down, and refuse to believe it’s because of their own policies. | | |
| ▲ | r2_pilot 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Don't consign us here in Mississippi, voting in every election, to not be represented in a democratic society. It's hard enough living here without getting dogpiled by external people who never visit and think that just because our "representatives" are a certain way that everyone here is like them, instead of the messier reality that power structures here are misaligned with the actual population's collective will. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I lived in Texas, Mississippi, Florida before, so I’m unsure what you mean by not visiting. I didn’t list a state that I hadn’t lived in for at least 3 months. Unfortunately that was 5 years in Mississippi. Regardless what would you have us do? More autonomy for states? You can’t go out alone, and we have a nice red-blue state now to base a division on. | | |
| ▲ | greenie_beans 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | no, they are saying that by discarding mississippi, you are ignoring like 45%+ of the state that didn't vote for whatever politician you hate. and also you are ignoring the centuries of disenfranchisement that prevents more people from voting against whatever politician you hate. it's not a monolith. mississsippi is the blackest state in the union yet coastal liberals who are supposedly anti-racist are quick to throw out the state. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Having actually lived in Mississippi, I’ve seen the disenfranchisement first hand. But what can we do? We can’t fix Mississippi, they will have to want to fix themselves, so why not let them explore more fully the consequences of their own actions? Mississippi thinks California is keeping them down, then without California they would have to start blaming themselves more. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > then without California they would have to start blaming themselves more Because blaming a foreign country for your woes just doesn't happen. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You know, we can blame China (another country I've lived in) all we want for our problems, and China definitely blames the US for a lot of its problems...but at the end of the day, the Chinese and the USA don't really have to care what the others think about them. |
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| ▲ | greenie_beans 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | i'm from there and there are so many people trying to fix it. somehow you lived there so long and didn't realize this fact, bless your heart. (this is helping prove my point btw) who in mississippi is blaming california for their problems, other than state politicians who think that is effective political rhetoric? all of the voters i know can read past that BS even if we have different political ideology. idk this is just my experience growing up there and then later studying the south as an academic. we are used to being condescended to. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid an hour ago | parent [-] | | How is it condescending to say that Mississippi should just do its own thing and we don't have to bother ourselves with their choices? I feel like we are in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. Whatever we say, or even if we say nothing, will be seen in Mississippi as being condescended to. Just us existing is seen as condescended. This is why we should just give up, we do our thing and they do their thing, if Mississippi is still offended by our existence, we can just ignore them. | | |
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| ▲ | cucumber3732842 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So? How's that any different than everyone in Buffalo just having to bend over and take it because NYC and Albany want to do spreadsheets and services instead of factories? No state is a monolith. | | |
| ▲ | magicalist 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's exactly the point. It makes no sense to say maybe if New York went off and was its own country it'll finally not be so divided. | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I mean it'd be less divided insofar as the minority would be more thoroughly subjugated by the state. No pesky federal government getting in the way. Though that's probably not a good thing. |
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| ▲ | armchairhacker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can move, trading places with a conservative stuck in a blue state, with assistance because many other people are moving. | |
| ▲ | AndrewKemendo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If there’s a “collective will” then why isn’t the population forcing its collective will on those power structures? | | |
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| ▲ | busyant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Let Mississippi be Mississippi with Texas and Florida, let California find its own way with New York and Washington. These places aren't homogeneous in their political tastes. I live in a northeast blue state, but there are rural pockets that are still heavily MAGA. And I'm sure Mississippi has liberal enclaves. That being said, I don't know what the "solution" to this problem is. | | |
| ▲ | chasd00 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | further, California is a big state. For the concept to work you'd have to split California lengthwise, the Western 1/3 would align politically how the op is assuming but the Eastern 2/3 would not. If the counter argument is majority rule then you're pretty much back to where you started with a divided population and 2 wolves + 1 lamb voting on lunch. | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | There will still be liberals in a new confederacy, and there will still be conservatives in a new union, we are only really talking about changing 50/50 into 60/40 on either side. BUT let's face it, our current equilibrium is not sustainable, this country can't survive another Trump, let alone the current one. Trump is talking about disenfranchising voters in blue states (because we must be cheating or we are illegal immigrants or something), I feel like that if we continue to union with these states, I will just wake up with a knife in my back someday. Democracy works, we just have bad partners right now. |
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| ▲ | cj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > we are just too divided I challenge this. I think the TV media, social media, and politicians like to make us feel like we are very divided because that's what gets "the base" to give a shit. But if you throw away all of the garbage on TV and the garbage online, how divided are we? Really? I think if you strip away the distractions, the people in conservative Florida have a lot more in common with people in liberal NY than one might assume. | |
| ▲ | jll29 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | E pluribus duam? | |
| ▲ | rexpop an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're confusing neo-feudalist oligarchical propaganda with the will of the people. | |
| ▲ | ModernMech 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a tempting thought but play it out. Now you live next to a belligerent fascist theocracy with nukes who likes to invade foreign countries and aspires to control the entire western hemisphere from Canada to Chile. How does that end? |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > you're suggesting our systems should be less democratic I’ll take the bait. I think we need less electoral fetishisation. Our republic is woefully deficient on selection by lot, something which would seem to benefit e.g. our judiciary. > opposing points of view should pick better candidates Totally agree. But the primary-by-election system demonstrates, in a microcosm, why defaulting to electing everything isn’t a good strategy. | |
| ▲ | andix 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm just stating an observation. | |
| ▲ | unethical_ban 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is trolling, or a glaring false dichotomy, or choosing not to recognize reality, or all three. Complaining about the outcome of an election is not equivalent to advocating for non-democracy. Much of what the US executive has done to intimidate foreign residents is illegal if not anti-American, such as revoking visas for writing op-eds in a student newspaper that the political leadership dislikes. The gutting of funding at various universities was also done as political punishment. So, I'm not sure what your point was. | |
| ▲ | rexpop an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you trolling? Elections are won by spending, especially since Citizens United. Democracy has not survived oligarchical propaganda. | |
| ▲ | nukedindia 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > So you're suggesting our systems should be less democratic, then? Well, what should a democratic society do when that democracy votes to overthrow it and do fascism? | | |
| ▲ | SiempreViernes 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Probably accept it wasn't actually a fair system and put in some proper legislation about district drawing algorithms, voting access, and campaign financing. You also have to take a good luck at the unelected legislative power of the supreme court, those clowns aren't doing democracy any favours. | |
| ▲ | loeg 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No one voted to "overthrow" democracy and do "fascism," cut the hyperbole. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > No one voted to "overthrow" democracy and do "fascism," Most Trump voters didn't. A sizeable fraction have openly agitated for, and supported, violently overthrowing our elected government. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Stop freaking out at thought experiments. I'm asking what should happen in such a scenario. Should a democratic society be able to vote to nuke their least favorite city? Should they be able to vote for slavery? Should they be able to vote to legalize raping kids? What should a democratic populace not be able to inflict upon the less powerful segments of society? | | |
| ▲ | loeg 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | To clarify, you agree that the Trump admin / MAGA political movement isn't fascism and his election wasn't an overthrow of democracy? Your earlier remarks were just a thought experiment? That isn't really the sense I've gotten from your historical comments. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't agree; it's simply irrelevant here. We either accept "there are some things you shouldn't be able to democratically vote for" like, say, the Holocaust or reinstating slavery, or we do not. You added Trump to the conversation, not me. |
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| ▲ | lumost 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's more complicated than this, The US has multiple challenge in its own domestic talent pipeline. In a world of finite slots for elite production and elite employment the US must own the outcome of allocating those slots internationally and the resulting under-employment of its domestic population. Whether these slots should be finite or not is an independent problem, however for various reasons the slots are currently finite and potentially reducing in volume with income inequality. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > US must own the outcome of allocating those slots internationally and the resulting under-employment of its domestic population Slots are being cut across the board. For international students as well as domestic ones. Also, we’re talking about a couple hundred seats. And again, of graduate students. > Whether these slots should be finite or not They’re grad students. Extremely skilled. Artisanly trained, pretty much. There are fundamental limits on how many we can productively have. I’m guessing none at MIT are wasted. |
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| ▲ | taf2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| are there any stats pointing to these students going to different schools? we know birth rates fell sharply starting ~2008 and have stayed low. [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr043.pdf] |
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| ▲ | groundzeros2015 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn’t the brain drain people leaving their home countries to make money in the US? |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > people leaving their home countries to make money in the US? To study and work, yes. We learned the trick when the Nazis chased off their scientists, doubled down on it by capturing Nazi scientists, and then developed it into a multi-decade advantage throughout the Cold War and the 1990s. Looking back, we started fucking it up with the Iraq War and financial crisis (see: A123 bankruptcy giving China its EV industry) and are now closing the chapter triumphantly. | | |
| ▲ | 1-more 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Highly recommend The Man from the Future biography of John von Neumann. We got The Martians for a steal because Europe was too hostile to minorities and we got the Manhattan Project and computers out of the deal. Never gonna have a brain drain arbitrage opportunity like that again. | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s not remotely similar. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thanks! Really appreciate the recommendation! > Never gonna have a brain drain arbitrage opportunity like that again. It’s sort of there for the taking for American elites. Someone just has to roll out a real red carpet. |
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| ▲ | pkaye 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There has been a general downtrend in Chinese students studying internationally. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-03-29/chinese-student-numbe... Also US international students as percent of overall student population has been in the low end. Its mostly been universities around the world catering to international students because they pay a higher tuition and to makeup for a shortfall in domestic funding. Its much better for universities to educate the local population. https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2025/12/universities-cry-po... | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those were productive researchers already working in the field who simply moved their address. Whether to educate young Chinese nationals in the US who plan to return to their home nation isn’t a similar situation. | |
| ▲ | danans 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A123 bankruptcy giving China its EV industry For those who aren't aware, A123 made the batteries for the GM EV1, which GM famously killed after killing the CA clean air regulation that gave rise to it. | | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | seibelj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | jryio 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| A brain drain means the intelligent population emigrates to other countries. The narrative and data do not support Americans going abroad. I think you're referring to a lack of competitive education for those coming outside of America and choosing Europe / China to study. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight |
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| ▲ | Ifkaluva 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you’ve got it backwards. MIT used to be brain-draining China, India, Iran, Europe, etc into schools like MIT. The lower numbers mean this is happening less. There are likely multiple factors: becoming less attractive, their domestic options becoming more attractive, more aggressive immigration posture, etc | | |
| ▲ | jryio 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you "drain" something the subject of the verb is what is being drained not where it is draining to. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Brain drain is a noun. In the context of American research universities, it’s historically been used one way because that was the direction of the drain. | |
| ▲ | jknoepfler 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Monopolizing talent is a zero sum game. If your tally is in the negative, you're experiencing brain drain. |
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| ▲ | chirau 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No. They have it right. Brain drain, by definition, is emigration of educated and skilled labor out of country or region in search of greener pastures. America losing foreigners in education institutions is not 'brain drain' in the classical sense. There is no emigration (the drain) involved. America receiving all those students and skilled labor over the years was brain drain. | | |
| ▲ | kccqzy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s brain drain from other countries, especially China. The pipeline was simple: go to a mid tier Chinese university for undergraduate studies, get a masters or PhD from an American university, be advantaged in H1B due to this graduate degree, get a green card and settle permanently. That’s the brain drain. This pipeline has slowed down massively. | | |
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| ▲ | tuckerman 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They are saying the opposite. People have been coming to America for higher education and staying here and that has historically benefited the US. And that seems to be changing. | | |
| ▲ | jryio 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am also saying the same thing. They are commenting that the flight of human capital was coming from abroad and is no longer. However that's not what brain drain means. You would say "Iran had a brain drain in the 70s" not "America was brain draining Iran" makes no sense. | | |
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| ▲ | lokar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think they meant that in the past every other nation had a brain drain towards American research universities. | |
| ▲ | nyeah 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I took the previous comment to mean that the US has benefited from brain drain so far. If we turned off that benefit, that could handicap the US. | |
| ▲ | Ensorceled 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, brain drains work TOWARDS the US as well, word meanings are not an American centric thing. |
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