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slg 3 hours ago

Historians looking back at this era are going to struggle to understand why we made the decisions we did.

brianjlogan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lots of historical precedent for an intellectual elite ignoring the perception and needs of the common folk leading to an uprising.

I'd imagine every great(in scale/importance) uprising/political tumult had some aspect of "but they're ruining everything!"

Everything for intellectuals and people with ties to the system that was functioning for that minority.

Coal miners don't care that international students aren't coming to the US anymore. That's not an important factor for them.

Edit: My point here is that you don't need hindsight to see how this aligns with historic precedent.

Arodex 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The Confederates' common folks tried to burn the USA to the ground to save their inalienable right to own slaves.

Who will listen to the "perception and needs" of the racist, misogynistic common folks who want to impose their religious liberty (by banning abortion) and and elevate their financial situation (by pushing downward brown and black people)? (The GOP, that's who.)

And don't you tell me it's a minority, when less than a week after the Supreme Court made the VRA null in practice, half a dozen states are rushing to eliminate any black representation. The whole GOP in those states (who already found a way to practice slavery through their carceral system - yes, there are black people picking cotton under the guard of armed white people on horses right now, today) is unanimous in erasing any power from black people. It is their first and foremost priority right now, despite everything else going on.

noosphr 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The French revolted because bread was too expensive then guillotined more than half of their best and brightest.

I guess democracy was a mistake and we need to get back to inbread monarchy instead of the blood thirsty unwashed masses.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Confederates' common folks tried to burn the USA to the ground to save their inalienable right to own slaves

Something I learned at The Old Slave Mart Museum in Charleston [1] is that Southern slaveowners were almost all terifically leveraged. Slaves were purchased predominantly with borrowed money (from, I might add, the North). And slaves were expensive, making up a significant if not dominating fraction of estates' assets.

For Southern elites, therefore, abolition was an existential question. It meant bankruptcy and poverty, with insult added to injury in their creditors being Northerners. To my knowledge (and I'm no expert in this) the question of abolition paired with debt forgiveness was never seriously discussed by the Union.

So yes, Confederate racism absolutely condemns its common folk. But even a moderately well-read Southern commoner would understand that abolition meant financial crisis, taking out their communities' largest tax payers, donors, consumers and employers in one swoop.

I didn't walk away from the Museum sympathetic to slavery. But I did become more sympathetic to the South; in particular, to their bewildering decisions to continue prosecuting a war they were so very obviously, from a history textbook's perspective, losing. (To be clear, slavery is wrong. The South seceding was stupid. Not suing for peace after Gettysburg and Vicksburg stupider still.)

[1] https://theoldslavemartmuseum.org

Levitz 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Calling out the GOP for imposing racism, sexism and ideology in a thread about US universities is certainly a choice.

Zigurd 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We need to finish Reconstruction. That sounds idealistic, even pie in the sky unrealistic. But we could certainly measure progress in that direction: US incarceration rates are insanely high, and the prison industrial complex is modern slavery. We would know victory when we put fewer people in prison than China, for example.

That's not the only symptom, or the only measure of progress. But it would be a good start.

ZeroGravitas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Grad students outnumber coalminers 70:1, if they're roughly half international which another comment claims, that's still a big difference.

slg 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The way "coal miners" are discussed would also likely be something that puzzles historians. There are approximately 45,000 coal miners in the US, that's roughly equivalent to the combined enrollment of Harvard and MIT. There are more university students in the relatively small city of Cambridge, Massachusetts than there are people mining coal in the US and yet we have to pretend the latter are a constituency worth considering.

an hour ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> yet we have to pretend the latter are a constituency worth considering

The Clines, Justices and even Manchins have money. The miners are almost irrelevant.

metalforever 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I am a programmer that comes from a family of coal miners. They don't actually consider that constituency, its just a game to win a swing state.

dxdm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is historical precedent for uprisings. Those are usually messy and do not tend to leave most people doing the uprising better off.

Much more precedent for new elites putting themselves into a position of power while purporting to be channeling a popular uprising on behalf and for the benefit of the "common folk", who again do not end up better off for it, often quite the opposite.

It's sad and frustrating to see this play out again and again. As you say, you don't need hindsight to see how it aligns with history.

Ar-Curunir 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The professors, graduate students, and staff (not admins) are all working class. They are not some kind of elite in society.

The median professor makes less than, say, an electrician. I am a professor in a good school, and I could probably triple my pay by going to industry.

This propaganda needs to stop.

exitb 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> intellectual elite ignoring the perception and needs of the common folk

Isn’t that what the common folk chose? Was some of that not clear before the election?

layer8 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They might struggle understanding why the decision-makers were elected, though maybe not even that. It’s well-documented why the decisions are being made. Decisions being bad doesn’t mean that they aren’t perfectly explainable.

mullingitover 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or they'll just say "History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes."[1]

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802602/

Zigurd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some of "we" were whipped into a frenzy of resentment against science, culture, and awareness of our mixed bag of history. That's how those decisions were enabled.

schainks 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems pretty cut and dry to me: Boomers I know today still rave about Regan-era policies and how good they were for everyone, although I'm not sure what "everyone" they are referring to in that sentence. Regan-era deregulation, cutting of social spending, and favoring asset-based versus wage based economic growth certainly laid the groundwork for where we are with today's K-shaped economy.

JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Eh, do we struggle with Caligula? He’s seen as he was—a joke. I imagine this era will be seen similarly unless we manage to capstone the era with nukes.

notahacker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We'd probably struggle to understand Caligula if he'd been popularly elected after he went mad by an electorate that got to listen to his madness on television...

zamfi 3 hours ago | parent [-]

On its face this sounds like an indictment of an electorate.

But I think it's actually a much deeper indictment of the incumbents who couldn't present a vision more appealing than the "madness on television".

csoups14 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Of course incumbents are going to be supportive of the system as it was and is, they're incumbents. You can't blame a person in power for maintaining a system giving them power any more than you can blame a bee for pollinating a flower. It's in their nature. The electorate misidentified the solution to their problems. Voters squarely hold the blame in my opinion. You can't vote for an arsonist and then complain when they set fire to everything. Leftists spend their time complaining online and disengaging from the political system instead of voting in primaries against incumbents. Independents and conservatives vote against their own interests consistently while keeping in power a party that is destroying our system of government.

bigstrat2003 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, people act like everything was peachy until Trump decided to run, and then people went crazy and voted for him for some unknowable reason. No, things were pretty fucked before Trump. We had decades of our "leaders" in Washington treating the people with contempt and making decisions for personal benefit, rather than what benefits the people. We had bribery, I mean lobbying, behind a ton of the laws that got passed. And that's without even getting into the tyrannical stuff, like the Patriot act, the NSA spying, etc.

No, the government was pretty blatantly not serving the people's interests when Trump came along. That doesn't make Trump a good solution to the problem, but nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves". It would be surprising if that promise didn't resonate with people.

retsibsi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> but nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves"

Sort of, but that was always a pretty obvious tack to take, and I don't think there was ever a shortage of would-be leaders willing to play that role. So we're still left with the question of why the voters chose the most obviously untrustworthy guy to play it.

pesus 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think there is a shortage of would-be leaders like that though, that's the problem. Or at least would be leaders that gained any real traction. The only other one in the past decade was Bernie.

Unfortunately for the past 3 elections, it essentially came down to the obviously untrustworthy "outsider" vs the ultimate establishment candidate. For a lot of people, it's as simple as that.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> nobody should be surprised when people vote for an outsider who says "I'm for you, and I'm going to help you take back your country from the out of touch elites who hate you and only look out for themselves

Which is ironic, given Trump has been pretty great for anyone who is rich or well connected.

lotsofpulp 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What if the electorate is so stupid that what appeals to them is ruinous?

What if the electorate is so stupid that it simply votes against women in order to affirm their personal desires to not be at bottom of the socioeconomic rankings, however delusional those may be?

slg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An emperor choosing a bad heir is much easier to explain than the general population of a democracy choosing this.

JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe Athens and Alcibiades is a better example? Or the Carthaginians being Carthiginians.

bflesch 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Interesting comparison. From the Wikipedia [1]:

> For the early part of his reign, he is said to have been "good, generous, fair and community-spirited", but increasingly self-indulgent, cruel, sadistic, extravagant, and sexually perverted thereafter, an insane, murderous tyrant who demanded and received worship as a living god, humiliated the Senate, and planned to make his horse a consul. [...]

> During his brief reign, Caligula worked to increase the unconstrained personal power of the emperor, as opposed to countervailing powers within the principate. [...]

> He had to abandon an attempted invasion of Britain, and the installation of his statue in the Temple in Jerusalem.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula

JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I, Claudius does a solid fictionalization of the man. (Suetonius if you’re craving drier.)

floren 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed, it's my 2026 book of the year despite being written in the 30s

dfedbeef 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I certainly am

gosub100 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There will be no more historians. Their jobs will be lost to AI.

justin66 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On the contrary, populism and its effects are well understood by historians. This is just another wave.

outside2344 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did you not consider the 5 second dopamine hit I got from owning the libs?

jalapenoj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Like MIT’s decision to buddy up with Epstein?

gosub100 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Or finding out that he was just the tip of a giant iceberg that corrupted every square inch of our government.

Bud 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]