| ▲ | efskap 3 hours ago |
| Looks and feels premium, but ultimately fundamentally disposable. This pattern extends to so many goods in modern life. Washing machines, microwaves, etc aren't worth the time of a local repairman. Repair is economically incompatible with its life cycle. Clothes are replaced, not stitched. And after a few washes at that. Cars, phones, etc, consist of proprietary parts all sealed up. |
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| ▲ | xp84 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Looks and feels premium, but ultimately fundamentally disposable. I'd add that experiences like GP help expose that the main difference in most products between 'premium' and 'disposable' is in the branding and the price tag. With few exceptions, most companies that used to make the respected brand of the thing (e.g. Sony, G.E., Craftsman) now churn out the same garbage as you used to find 30 years ago in a fleamarket with a brand you'd never heard of - and that's if they don't actually outsource the design and/or production to that low-bidder company and simply license their logo directly to them. And that's because these are all public or PE-owned companies, and it's a shortcut to easy short-term quarterly growth if you can cut your costs while keeping your price high or almost as high (after all, you're a "Premium Brand" so you can leverage your past reputation to trick customers into continuing to pay that premium). |
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| ▲ | computerex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That’s a western perspective because we are spoiled and have no thought for sustainability. Please take a look at poor countries of the world like Pakistan. They have a repair culture. They have vehicles from the 80’s out on the road doing daily driving work instead of being used as vintage show pieces. It’s a poor country, this is a necessity. But nevertheless seeing the repair culture there in contrast to the disposable culture in the western world makes me pause. |
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| ▲ | xtracto 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This... I wonder why isn't there a market in Tijuana, Juarez and other border towns for fixing broken electronics and similar appliances. Here in Mexico there are plenty of "unofficial" laptops/mobile (Apple, Windows, Androids) repair shops that even receive your device by DHL/UPS, fix it and return it. Because the labor costs are low enough to make it worth. The only downside is that most of the spare parts are imported from the US. | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In Western countries, the time of skilled repairmen is better spent repairing things which are much more important and expensive than consumer goods. And a consumer usually has a much higher return from working in his specialized field to earn money and buy a new product, than spending time with difficult repairs of a broken product. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, this is entirely a function of labor costs. If you want your stuff repaired, ship it to a low-labor cost economy or hire someone to whom it’s worth the time. | | |
| ▲ | hx8 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Just to take one step further, labor costs are largely a function of local real estate costs. | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | To add to that; labour should be expensive. And lower repairability of consumer goods is a side effect that is worth dealing with for that benefit. |
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| ▲ | nextos 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Good clothes can be definitely stitched. Some brands even offer free or reasonably priced repairs. Patagonia or Citizen Wolf are two examples that spring to mind, and it's even more common once you cross a certain price point. Same applies to good hardware, but you need to do some research before buying. I am afraid Google's business model is incompatible with this approach as they have almost no customer service because it doesn't "scale". Actually, what they are doing is turning customer service costs into externalities, i.e. environmental waste. |
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| ▲ | tick_tock_tick 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Repair is economically incompatible with its life cycle. No, it's because repair involves labor and unless we ship it across the world to take advantage of people making a dollar a day it's just not worth it. The cost of making and importing stuff from the third world is just so cheap now that it's simpler to get a new one then to have someone making a living wage in the west fix it. |
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| ▲ | tgma 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn't that a feature not a bug? That means labor, a proxy for quality of life of the laborer, is more expensive than parts. That's abundance. In fact, in "shithole countries" where everyone wants to emigrate from, it is exactly the opposite: i.e. you try to fix everything even if it takes sooo long. |
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| ▲ | xandrius 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Absolutely not when replacing costs 100% and repairing usually costs 0.1%. And the reason people want to leave certain countries is for totally different reasons than not wanting to repair something. In fact, I would say with quite some certainty that emigrees who repaired first before leaving would still do it after emigrating. The real reasons, in my opinion, are: 1) it takes skill and will to repair something yourself, 2) something new generally feels better than repaired/used, 3) logistics make replacing/repairing less cost efficient, 4) with every replace, companies have a new touchpoint to try to upsell their customers, 5) it takes less time to go to a shop and replace than repair, 6) it takes some giving a shit about the environment to prefer the more complicated route. And probably more. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If repairing usually cost 0.1% then everyone would do it. The reason almost nobody in first-world countries is getting their microwave repaired is because it often costs more than buying a new one. This is because the new unit is manufactured overseas in a place with cheap labor, but the existing unit has to be repaired locally with expensive labor. Of course people aren't emigrating because they don't want to repair things. But they are often emigrating because they want to live in a place with high labor costs (i.e. high salaries), or for other reasons that are very strongly correlated with high labor costs. |
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| ▲ | xp84 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is actually a thought-provoking perspective! I have to admit you're right in your conclusions, though the issues are: 1. The waste is still a tremendous shame, both in the materials that will realistically never be recovered in 'recycling', and in the toxicity that results from a lot of that trash created. 2. Jobs in repairing lots of things were arguably pretty good jobs, and we've traded these for, best case, more complete drudgery retailing/supply chain jobs as we get a new laptop every year or two instead of 5 years. Arguably a bigger failing of our economic system, which doesn't seem capable of adapting to global trade, or this shift we're discussing here, nor AI, but still a bummer regardless of fault. | |
| ▲ | joe5150 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can value not pumping out disposable garbage even if the (current) economic regime appears to encourage and reward it. | |
| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Temu boots don't feel like "abundance" to me compared to some nice tailored $400 boots that you take to the cobbler when there's an issue. I think in abundant society people would be able to have nice things and the time to take care of them. | |
| ▲ | 1shooner 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In this interpretation, repair requires more labor than recreating the entire product, and 'parts' somehow doesn't represent any labor. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > repair requires more labor than recreating the entire product It requires specialized and local labor. For products you can ship back to the assembly line, this can sometimes work. If you need a local technician, on the other hand, because the assembly line is in China or the product is heavy, yeah, it very well may be that there is no niche where repairs aren’t a material fraction of a new product. |
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| ▲ | petra 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Often it's not even labor. Given the right guidance and difficulty level, I would enjoy fixing things in my washing machine. | |
| ▲ | igorbark 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | this logic does not hold up if the reason that labor is more expensive than parts is that the labor involved in creating those parts has been outsourced to a "shithole country" | |
| ▲ | drysine 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That means that the cost of (not) utilizing garbage is externalized | | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >the cost of (not) utilizing garbage is externalized No, it's the exact opposite, because the consumer is on the hook for the purchase price as well as any repair costs. | | |
| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Handling trash costs money. A lot of money. Right now, most Americans find it hard to even conceptualize the idea of paying to deal with their waste. | | |
| ▲ | loeg 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What are you talking about. Trash is inexpensive, but Americans absolutely pay for it (solid waste utility bill). I think people conceptualize that they have utility bills? | |
| ▲ | fragmede 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Where Americans are renters and garbage service is hidden in their monthly rent payment, sure, but for Americans who own a home, they have to pay their local jurisdiction a fee for taking away trash and recycling and compost (and batteries and light bulbs). Also sewage and water. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wat. Almost all Americans either pay someone to deal with their waste or are dependents of someone who pays on their behalf. Do you think we're all burning our trash in barrels or dumping it in the local river or something? |
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| ▲ | kelnos 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But the consumer isn't on the hook for dealing with the garbage. |
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| ▲ | boppo1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Horseshit. It means we're doing less with more and anyone with a brain should be able to figure out that's bad for Quality of Life on a long term. Wasting your resources is not how an economy grows strong. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >It means we're doing less with more Labor is an input too. Fixing something in a way that saves some materials, but requires hours of skilled labor and specialized equipment doesn't straightforwardly mean you're saving overall. | | |
| ▲ | hyperbovine 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'll bet it does once you properly price in externalities. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are various localities that add recycling fees to electronics. They're on the order of 1% of the purchase price, so it's unlikely to make a difference in the repair vs replace calculation. |
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| ▲ | bcrosby95 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm going to offer a counter narrative here based upon my experience. I have LG appliances and they have fairly reasonable "fix everything wrong" prices. It's not literally everything, your bells and whistles might not work, but if you want just a washing machine, just a dishwasher, or just a fridge/freezer, it will be less expensive than the cheapest new option out there. When our fridge stopped fridging, we got it fixed for $300: this included replacing the compressor and the coils. When our dishwasher stopped washing, we paid $250 to have 3 or so things fixed at once. And so on. I don't know if any appliance makers offer this, but if LG still offers it when we eventually replace, they're going to be on the top of my list. |
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| ▲ | phainopepla2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My washing machine started making weird loud noises recently. Had a repair guy come by and he told me it's the plastic gears in the gearcase wearing down. I asked him what it would cost to repair and he said with parts and labor it would be cheaper to buy a new one. He told me to just keep using it and deal with the noise until it stops working, so that's what I'm doing. When the time comes I'm considering paying $150 for the new gearcase and trying to fix it myself, but it's so stupid to that it's come to this |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Parts wear out. Things break. That's normal. The rose-tinted era of things being made to last never really happened. For each of the old survivor washing mashines, refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, and Casiotron wrist watches that are still out there doing good work, countless thousands of others were recycled or landfilled because it was better to buy something different than to fix the old one. It was never cheap to pay someone to work on stuff. The costs of hiring professional labor and the overhead associated with that labor (for service techs, that means things like vehicles, buildings, inventory, tools, training, insurance, book keeping, and covering next week's paycheck even if this week was slow) have always been expensive. Parts have always been relatively expensive, too. Availability of parts has always been somewhat hit-or-miss. It seems like an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it came to this. Instead, I think that it started off this way, and that it simply remains this way today. So, sure: $150 for a new widget? Not so bad. Maybe a pro could get it done in a few hours (maybe they can even get two of them done in one workday!), while perhaps it will take you a day or two to work through R&Ring this thing on your own for the first time. Whether the total investment (including time) is worth it to you is a personal decision, but that kind of decision-making is also not new. :) | | |
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| ▲ | losvedir 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's the result of manufacturing at scale being so tremendously more efficient. It really does use less human effort, resources, energy, whatever metric you want to measure, to just produce a brand new one than to produce a more resource-intensive one and then try to fix in a one-off fashion. |
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| ▲ | kingleopold an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "Planned obsolescence" is the engineering reason for this so it's well planned. |
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| ▲ | loeg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "Disposable" is fine! Things have a useful lifetime and uneconomic repairs are just that. Nothing needs to last forever. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Disposable" is a tradeoff, and can absolutely be a net-negative if you take it too far. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Clothes are replaced, not stitched Unlike a lot of hardware and such in our homes, this mostly just boils down to people refusing to learn and is incredibly easy to remedy. Basic stitching is not super difficult. My partner has very light knowledge of stitching, learned it mostly as a kid and never used it much, but has repaired plenty of my clothes. I'm wearing stitched jeans as we speak (pocket got caught on a hook and tore nearly off). Typically gives my regularly worn clothes an extra year or two of life. |
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| ▲ | Henchman21 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Welcome to modern life. It looks amazing — but its all a lie. |