| ▲ | ptdorf 4 hours ago |
| Educated AND motivated workforce will do the trick. All the polish I know that work in IT enjoy handwork as well. They are hard workers. |
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| ▲ | praptak 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| As a Polish IT worker I feel that we enjoy hardwork too much. I'm talking here about "kultura zapierdolu" [0] which is what we call the specific Polish version of culture of unhealthy work/life balance. [0] https://lubimyczytac.pl/ksiazka/5124728/czesc-pracy-o-kultur... |
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| ▲ | jvanderbot 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I always take minor issue with this. I feel like one uberhard worker has an unhealthy return.
But a group of uberhard workers have a healthy return - they compound each others hard work and build a prosperous _environment_. My wife and I work very hard, as do our colleagues. But together we've built a pretty healthy routine, home, and (for now at least) financial situation. This has enabled us to have kids more easily than most, travel, etc. The hardest workers /busiest folks I know are farmfolk relatives, and they also have a level of social connection and family connection that I envy all the time. It's mostly from them showing up to help with _everything_. | |
| ▲ | sdfhbdf 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | handwork != hardwork ;) |
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| ▲ | Zigurd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They have a strong reputation as hard-working. After the liberation of Eastern Europe, Polish crews were all over Eastern Europe doing everything from restoring historic town centers to quickly and reliably putting a fresh coat of paint on apartments. |
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| ▲ | dakiol 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I guess it's anecdata. Polish engineers I've worked with weren't that good at technical stuff nor communication (in English). They're overprotective with "their" code and in general we've had more luck with western/southern Europeans. |
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| ▲ | atraac an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm Polish, working for globally remote companies. I second the communication issue. Most Polish devs are so ashamed of their english(even if it's perfectly communicative) that it makes it hard to discuss technical ideas with them. As for technical knowledge, I guess that's cognitive bias, most Polish devs I met were far better at tech stuff than most f.e. Germans I worked with. | |
| ▲ | kuboble 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm from Poland, but I worked in multinational place in Europe and I would rank polish people on average in the middle of pack in terms of working ethic. Behind Germans, or Scandinavians, but ahead of most Mediteraneans. | |
| ▲ | ozim 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Looking at other comments it seems like your experience is less representative. |
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| ▲ | zeafoamrun 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| All the Polish engineers I've worked with have been top notch. |
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| ▲ | chatmasta 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They also enjoy 15% tax, through some arrangement I’m still not convinced is legal for IT contractors… But yeah, some of the most skilled and passionate engineers I’ve worked with have been from Poland and the surrounding countries like Czechia. |
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| ▲ | atraac an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | 12% for software development, 8.5% for design/management. The caveat being, you can't deduct anything from tax, only VAT(under some assumptions). If you have actual expenses it's 12/32% progressive or 19% linear tax. Of course all of those are assuming you own a one man company and work B2B. Most devs here do. Otherwise regular contract of employment is progressive 12/32% tax, plus Healthcare and employer payments. Much less beneficial to both sides hence why it's not preferred by most. | |
| ▲ | rembal an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | 15%? With some legal footwork you can get to 10 or 5%, depending if you count general medical I surance as a tax or not. |
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| ▲ | olalonde 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Were they not educated and motivated before? |
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| ▲ | yu3zhou4 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Poland was sort of occupied until 1989 | | |
| ▲ | vrganj 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which, to be fair, laid the foundation for the well-educated part. The Soviets really valued STEM. They also quite valued emancipating women. Just for context, in the 60s, around 5% of chemistry PhDs in the US were women. In the Soviet Union, it was 40%! [0] Of course, that doesn't excuse all the other things they did, but the amount of badass female engineers from Eastern Europe I had the honor of working with is a direct result of the pipeline the Soviets built. [0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... | | |
| ▲ | thelastgallon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With all that Chemistry talent, they could have built and dominated battery industry. | | | |
| ▲ | tomalbrc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How come eastern germany does so poorly? | | |
| ▲ | atwrk 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They don't if you mean STEM and emancipation, quite the opposite, actually (compared to West Germany). In addition to the points of sibling comments, their respective starting posititions were drastically different: West Germany got the marshal plan, which benefitted their economy, the East had to pay reparations to the USSR, which meant whole factories, trains, even railroad tracks, all in all amounting to about a third of industrial capacity, were transferred to the USSR. | |
| ▲ | rft 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Without having firm data, I can see a few factors that are different. After the collapse of the GDR, it was easier for eastern Germans to move to west Germany than for Polish to move to a different country in the west. Mostly younger and educated people would have made that move, hampering future generations. With the Reunification also came the whole Treuhand issue which essentially sold off a good chunk of eastern Germany for pennies to western investors, because eastern investors had no capital. That meant the east lost out on the profits from its economy as they would accumulate in the west instead. Even today a large part of east German rentals are owned by western landlords or corporations. Then the industrial base of west Germany was setup far more for competing on the open world market with automotive companies in the NW (VW), SW (Daimler) and SE (BMW) plus the big industrial area Ruhrgebiet. So you naturally got an economic focus even after Reunification on the old BRD with the previous GDR requiring decades to hopefully catch up to the rest of the new country. | |
| ▲ | flohofwoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Quite a few educated East Germans have become West Germans as soon as they had the opportunity (or moved elsewhere in the world), but East Germany actually has a couple of high-tech 'hotspots' and good universities. An East German state (Saxony) also consistently has the best education system among German states. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/201453/umfrag... In general, East Germany (economically) mostly only does poorly when compared to West Germany, but not to the rest of Europe ;) | |
| ▲ | luke5441 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The headline figure of the article is purchase power (PPP) adjusted. I couldn't find any numbers for east German states where the purchase power adjustment happens per state.
Since housing is the largest component and housing costs differ between east and west Germany using a nation wide PPP adjustment factor gives wrong results for individual states. | |
| ▲ | pcrh 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Incomes in the former GDR are comparable to those of Poland. They still lag behind West Germany, however (as does Poland). | |
| ▲ | vrganj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think mostly due to the bungled reunification that was basically an asset-stripping followed by enormous brain drain. | |
| ▲ | mireg 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Quite simple. They all left. | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | MBAs and company owners do not come from stem education. | | |
| ▲ | MobiusHorizons 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying engineers and scientists don’t own companies? That’s an odd thing to say on a forum that’s basically dedicated to exactly that outcome. |
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| ▲ | ozim 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most educated and motivated Polish people were slaughtered by Germans and Russians in WW II then ones still alive working for or heavily oppressed by puppet soviet state. One of the examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre | |
| ▲ | LaGrange 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We were. And “hard workers” is code for “easily exploited.” Anyway the trick to explosive growth as a country is who you trade with and how you count things. We now sell things to Germany instead of USSR, of course there’s “growth.” There’s also some very real growth, quite a bit of it - but I wouldn’t put one bit of care in a “top 20 biggest economies” ranking. NL is one of the biggest food exporters in the world because it sells mediocre tomatoes to Germany instead of selling rice to Brazil and food exports are counted in euros, not calories. | | |
| ▲ | MyHonestOpinon 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you think the example of Poland is helping Ukraine resist and move towards the west? | | |
| ▲ | jacekm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I know that Ukraine takes Polish experiences into account and consults with Poles on what went well and what not during our post-communist transformation and later the EU membership. They are keen on not repeating our mistakes. There were many Ukrainians working in Poland long before the full scale work so naturally many Ukrainians were looking at Poland hoping that their country could eventually replicate polish success. But I don't think our example has an effect on morale and spirit of resistance. |
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| ▲ | p_l 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Honestly, a lot of issues was that we needed to build up the necessary infrastructure in the first place. And the transformation to market economy involved at least two periods of suicidal decisions in name of ideology that regressed the economy (by the same person, even) | |
| ▲ | petesergeant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, but being occupied by Russia has not traditionally been a motor for growth | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | They weren’t occupied by Russia, but the USSR which was an authoritarian communist state. That entire economic system failed for a reason, and the Chinese were wise to pivot (and not try spreading its ideology by force). | | |
| ▲ | 10xDev 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, I really don't think this is why China doesn't try to spread its ideology by force. I don't think a passive authoritarian state exists, just ones that don't have the military power or background / weak enough targets to achieve this. The US very much keeps them in check from invading not "wisdom". | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I get it, we are being gaslit and pyoped at a massive scale across all channels about China and their supposed intentions. But proof is in the pudding, China is cutting deals all over the world, building infrastructure - all without forced regime changes or ideological prerequisites nor bombs. | | |
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| ▲ | kuboble 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big parts of Poland have been occupied by a regime in Moscow for much longer than soviet empire existed, with roughly same outcomes. Most than century after Poland gained independence age WW1, you can still see the economical differences from being occupied by Germans and Russians. | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh let’s just ignore the times Poland/ Lithuanian empire occupied east Slavic lands and force converted a large number of Orthodox in the West to Catholicism. And the kingdom/regime before soviets was quite different than Soviets or modern Russian setup in terms of ideology. Again, that economic difference from last round was due specially to the failure of communism. And don’t forget that the US poured money into west Germany intentionally to show off their system. Look, I get some people don’t like Russia right now, but you can’t judge history through a modern lens; only through the zeitgeist of the time it occurred in. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What has one to do with another? So to counter my argument about Russian occupation from up to 1914 being irrelevant you bring Polish Kingdom from the times of The Holy Roman Empire? And I assume that polish literature from 18 hundreds was already deeply prescient anti-soviet? Because the russian occupant in 18 hundreds had exactly same flavours as those during the communism. Also the German occupation was in many regards as bad as Russian one but they had absolutely different face. But that is not part of the discussion really. And the fact that russian communist occupation of Poland had been absolutely awful was fully clear in Poland as soon as late 1940s (according to my old family members). In parcitular - some part of my family was ended war in some prisoner / working camps in western europe and had a choice of staying in the west or going back to Poland. How terrible idea to go back it was - became clear in the first few years after stayed so until the end in 1989. I remember vividly an interview one of the russian soldiers was giving in polish television on the day when Soviet Army was leaving Poland. "You don't even understand what you're losing. You will soon realize how big of a mistake it is and regret it deeply." Guess what? We don't. Adam Mickiewicz, Dziady, 1823
"Nie dziw, że nas tu przeklinają,
Wszak to już mija wiek,
Jak z Moskwy w Polskę nasyłają
Samych łajdaków stek." | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m not arguing that occupation was a good thing, clearly not. Anyways, look at modern Russia - they have many issues but now operate a mixed market oriented economy and have achieved #4 GDP by PPP and that’s under sanctions from hell, getting cut off from Swift and no German investment. There’s actually more in common with Russias rebound and Poland amazing growth vs the economic situation in much of the rest of the EU, they really could/should be trading partners but the EU won’t allow it. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that is cool. it doesn't change the fact how the Russians treated us for centuries, and not just during the Soviet Era and what were the outcomes compared to as some like say "EU or USA occupation". So we will thank you very much - not interested in it again, but honestly good luck to Russia being a peaceful prosperous country. Also have you noticed how and why the trade stopped? |
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| ▲ | victorbjorklund 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | According to Russians they are the contineuation of USSR. heck they are celebrating victory day claiming they were the red army. | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, they don’t claim that - but they do see it as a continuous thing (Russian civilization and the genocidal threat they overcame). Also, it’s not just them who celebrate. | | |
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| ▲ | ponector 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also USSR was never an authoritarian communist state. They had elected leaders! Unless Moscow is not part of russia you can't say they weren't occupied by russia. | | |
| ▲ | MobiusHorizons an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Authoritarian has nothing to do with elections, it has everything to do with the ability of people without positions of power to influence those in power without retribution. Most countries have elections, these days, but there is no lack of authoritarian rulers staying in power for decades and jailing or murdering their opposition. | |
| ▲ | rembal an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | So, who elected Stalin? He was the head of the USSR after all. |
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| ▲ | mothballed 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Motivation requires incentive. Probably hard to do when you're a communist bureaucrat offering an extra potato. |
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| ▲ | reubenlavin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, I agree. I believe cultural norms dictated their rate of expansion. Without so many people who enjoyed hard work they like would not have been able to expand their economy as much. |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | CodeNest 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | Tabular-Iceberg 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| And high IQ. It boggles the mind that people can look at a country whose average inhabitant meets the objective criteria for being developmentally challenged and wonder why it is an economic basket case. |
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| ▲ | 10xDev 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Those IQ charts look very different depending on who is doing the sampling. One of the famous ones is from a self described "scientific racist". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn | | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My sibling comment understates the critique. There is no such thing as "average IQ". Countries don't IQ test representative samples of their population, so hucksters like Richard Lynn just make shit up and pull samples from mental institutions (where IQ tests are used, as they should be, as diagnostics). This is a pretty simple and obvious observation. Have you ever been asked to take a proctored IQ test to help establish the "average IQ" of your own country? Presumably not. So why do people keep getting took by this silly idea that "average IQ per country" is a thing? | | |
| ▲ | cakealert 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Why the focus on Lynn? Focusing on his critics is more illuminating and damaging to your presumed position: Systematic review by Wicherts et al: "In light of all the available IQ data of over 37,000 African testtakers, only the use of unsystematic methods to exclude the vast majority of data could result in a mean IQ close to 70. On the basis of sound methods, the average IQ remains close to 80." They of course follow it with the conjecture: "Although this mean IQ is clearly lower than 100, we view it as unsurprising in light of the potential of the Flynn effect in Africa (Wicherts, Borsboom, & Dolan, 2010) and common psychometric problems associated with the use of western IQ tests among Africans." It's always curious how "common psychometric problems associated with the use of western IQ tests among Africans" don't carry over to economics and other things. Wouldn't you expect them to have similar problems with other western "ideas"? Also interesting how Easterners adapted to western IQ tests so well they are better at them than the West. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Part of the point of the Wicherts papers was to refute the Lynn data, observing that even taken on its own premises Lynn's team pretty clearly excluded data unfavorable to the conclusion they wanted to draw. But look at Wicherts 2009, at the samples they're talking about. One of the largest was 800 students in Nigerian high schools (a test arranged by IQ researchers to for a cross-cultural comparison, back in 1981). Lynn's data includes, and is materially influenced by, a sample of 59 Senagalese children who were tested while recovering from malaria. The malaria thing is just funny, but it's the numbers that stick out to me. I'm not getting further into the details here because the easiest-to-understand point here is that there are not in fact programs to generate reliable "average IQ" numbers in different countries. I am struck by the fact that message board nerds from America believe these programs exist, when almost none of us have ever taken an IQ test. | | |
| ▲ | cakealert a minute ago | parent [-] | | The purpose of IQ tests is to derive a value that would predict other values. The inverse is also true. Given a multitude of such values it would even be possible to get back to a precise IQ value. IQ tests are just factor analysis artifacts. You can dream up 100 questions that you conjecture may have something to do with intelligence and not even know the answers and have 10,000 people answer them. Factor analysis of the answers will yield a bell curve which you can then center on 100. Calibration can be more complicated than that but you get the point. |
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| ▲ | asdiovjdfi 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Possible conscripts are usually IQ tested in some way. If you have national consciption, then it would be a pretty good sample of the 18 year old male population. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Some armed forces administer general cognitive tests (like the US does with the ASVAB --- of course, not a random sample in the US, since we don't conscript) but most of these are not in fact IQ tests. Additionally, some western countries have done cross-sectional IQ tests for scientific reasons. In most countries, neither applies. Richard Lynn, responsible for the most widely known and cited "national IQ score" numbers, really did rely on mental health hospitals, and really did impute made-up scores to countries where he found literally no data at all. What you do see are attempts to synthesize IQ from aggregate economic and educational attainment data. But obviously these are really just proxies for economic development, which then begs the question. |
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