| ▲ | olalonde 4 hours ago |
| Were they not educated and motivated before? |
|
| ▲ | yu3zhou4 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Poland was sort of occupied until 1989 |
| |
| ▲ | vrganj 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which, to be fair, laid the foundation for the well-educated part. The Soviets really valued STEM. They also quite valued emancipating women. Just for context, in the 60s, around 5% of chemistry PhDs in the US were women. In the Soviet Union, it was 40%! [0] Of course, that doesn't excuse all the other things they did, but the amount of badass female engineers from Eastern Europe I had the honor of working with is a direct result of the pipeline the Soviets built. [0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... | | |
| ▲ | thelastgallon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With all that Chemistry talent, they could have built and dominated battery industry. | | | |
| ▲ | tomalbrc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How come eastern germany does so poorly? | | |
| ▲ | atwrk 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They don't if you mean STEM and emancipation, quite the opposite, actually (compared to West Germany). In addition to the points of sibling comments, their respective starting posititions were drastically different: West Germany got the marshal plan, which benefitted their economy, the East had to pay reparations to the USSR, which meant whole factories, trains, even railroad tracks, all in all amounting to about a third of industrial capacity, were transferred to the USSR. | |
| ▲ | rft 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Without having firm data, I can see a few factors that are different. After the collapse of the GDR, it was easier for eastern Germans to move to west Germany than for Polish to move to a different country in the west. Mostly younger and educated people would have made that move, hampering future generations. With the Reunification also came the whole Treuhand issue which essentially sold off a good chunk of eastern Germany for pennies to western investors, because eastern investors had no capital. That meant the east lost out on the profits from its economy as they would accumulate in the west instead. Even today a large part of east German rentals are owned by western landlords or corporations. Then the industrial base of west Germany was setup far more for competing on the open world market with automotive companies in the NW (VW), SW (Daimler) and SE (BMW) plus the big industrial area Ruhrgebiet. So you naturally got an economic focus even after Reunification on the old BRD with the previous GDR requiring decades to hopefully catch up to the rest of the new country. | |
| ▲ | flohofwoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Quite a few educated East Germans have become West Germans as soon as they had the opportunity (or moved elsewhere in the world), but East Germany actually has a couple of high-tech 'hotspots' and good universities. An East German state (Saxony) also consistently has the best education system among German states. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/201453/umfrag... In general, East Germany (economically) mostly only does poorly when compared to West Germany, but not to the rest of Europe ;) | |
| ▲ | luke5441 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The headline figure of the article is purchase power (PPP) adjusted. I couldn't find any numbers for east German states where the purchase power adjustment happens per state.
Since housing is the largest component and housing costs differ between east and west Germany using a nation wide PPP adjustment factor gives wrong results for individual states. | |
| ▲ | pcrh 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Incomes in the former GDR are comparable to those of Poland. They still lag behind West Germany, however (as does Poland). | |
| ▲ | vrganj 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think mostly due to the bungled reunification that was basically an asset-stripping followed by enormous brain drain. | |
| ▲ | mireg 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Quite simple. They all left. | |
| ▲ | 1718627440 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | MBAs and company owners do not come from stem education. | | |
| ▲ | MobiusHorizons 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying engineers and scientists don’t own companies? That’s an odd thing to say on a forum that’s basically dedicated to exactly that outcome. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | ozim 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Most educated and motivated Polish people were slaughtered by Germans and Russians in WW II then ones still alive working for or heavily oppressed by puppet soviet state. One of the examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre |
|
| ▲ | LaGrange 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We were. And “hard workers” is code for “easily exploited.” Anyway the trick to explosive growth as a country is who you trade with and how you count things. We now sell things to Germany instead of USSR, of course there’s “growth.” There’s also some very real growth, quite a bit of it - but I wouldn’t put one bit of care in a “top 20 biggest economies” ranking. NL is one of the biggest food exporters in the world because it sells mediocre tomatoes to Germany instead of selling rice to Brazil and food exports are counted in euros, not calories. |
| |
| ▲ | MyHonestOpinon 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you think the example of Poland is helping Ukraine resist and move towards the west? | | |
| ▲ | jacekm 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I know that Ukraine takes Polish experiences into account and consults with Poles on what went well and what not during our post-communist transformation and later the EU membership. They are keen on not repeating our mistakes. There were many Ukrainians working in Poland long before the full scale work so naturally many Ukrainians were looking at Poland hoping that their country could eventually replicate polish success. But I don't think our example has an effect on morale and spirit of resistance. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | p_l 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Honestly, a lot of issues was that we needed to build up the necessary infrastructure in the first place. And the transformation to market economy involved at least two periods of suicidal decisions in name of ideology that regressed the economy (by the same person, even) |
|
| ▲ | petesergeant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, but being occupied by Russia has not traditionally been a motor for growth |
| |
| ▲ | cpursley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | They weren’t occupied by Russia, but the USSR which was an authoritarian communist state. That entire economic system failed for a reason, and the Chinese were wise to pivot (and not try spreading its ideology by force). | | |
| ▲ | 10xDev 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, I really don't think this is why China doesn't try to spread its ideology by force. I don't think a passive authoritarian state exists, just ones that don't have the military power or background / weak enough targets to achieve this. The US very much keeps them in check from invading not "wisdom". | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I get it, we are being gaslit and pyoped at a massive scale across all channels about China and their supposed intentions. But proof is in the pudding, China is cutting deals all over the world, building infrastructure - all without forced regime changes or ideological prerequisites nor bombs. | | |
| |
| ▲ | kuboble 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big parts of Poland have been occupied by a regime in Moscow for much longer than soviet empire existed, with roughly same outcomes. Most than century after Poland gained independence age WW1, you can still see the economical differences from being occupied by Germans and Russians. | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh let’s just ignore the times Poland/ Lithuanian empire occupied east Slavic lands and force converted a large number of Orthodox in the West to Catholicism. And the kingdom/regime before soviets was quite different than Soviets or modern Russian setup in terms of ideology. Again, that economic difference from last round was due specially to the failure of communism. And don’t forget that the US poured money into west Germany intentionally to show off their system. Look, I get some people don’t like Russia right now, but you can’t judge history through a modern lens; only through the zeitgeist of the time it occurred in. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What has one to do with another? So to counter my argument about Russian occupation from up to 1914 being irrelevant you bring Polish Kingdom from the times of The Holy Roman Empire? And I assume that polish literature from 18 hundreds was already deeply prescient anti-soviet? Because the russian occupant in 18 hundreds had exactly same flavours as those during the communism. Also the German occupation was in many regards as bad as Russian one but they had absolutely different face. But that is not part of the discussion really. And the fact that russian communist occupation of Poland had been absolutely awful was fully clear in Poland as soon as late 1940s (according to my old family members). In parcitular - some part of my family was ended war in some prisoner / working camps in western europe and had a choice of staying in the west or going back to Poland. How terrible idea to go back it was - became clear in the first few years after stayed so until the end in 1989. I remember vividly an interview one of the russian soldiers was giving in polish television on the day when Soviet Army was leaving Poland. "You don't even understand what you're losing. You will soon realize how big of a mistake it is and regret it deeply." Guess what? We don't. Adam Mickiewicz, Dziady, 1823
"Nie dziw, że nas tu przeklinają,
Wszak to już mija wiek,
Jak z Moskwy w Polskę nasyłają
Samych łajdaków stek." | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m not arguing that occupation was a good thing, clearly not. Anyways, look at modern Russia - they have many issues but now operate a mixed market oriented economy and have achieved #4 GDP by PPP and that’s under sanctions from hell, getting cut off from Swift and no German investment. There’s actually more in common with Russias rebound and Poland amazing growth vs the economic situation in much of the rest of the EU, they really could/should be trading partners but the EU won’t allow it. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that is cool. it doesn't change the fact how the Russians treated us for centuries, and not just during the Soviet Era and what were the outcomes compared to as some like say "EU or USA occupation". So we will thank you very much - not interested in it again, but honestly good luck to Russia being a peaceful prosperous country. Also have you noticed how and why the trade stopped? |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | victorbjorklund 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | According to Russians they are the contineuation of USSR. heck they are celebrating victory day claiming they were the red army. | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, they don’t claim that - but they do see it as a continuous thing (Russian civilization and the genocidal threat they overcame). Also, it’s not just them who celebrate. | | |
| |
| ▲ | ponector 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also USSR was never an authoritarian communist state. They had elected leaders! Unless Moscow is not part of russia you can't say they weren't occupied by russia. | | |
| ▲ | MobiusHorizons an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Authoritarian has nothing to do with elections, it has everything to do with the ability of people without positions of power to influence those in power without retribution. Most countries have elections, these days, but there is no lack of authoritarian rulers staying in power for decades and jailing or murdering their opposition. | |
| ▲ | rembal an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | So, who elected Stalin? He was the head of the USSR after all. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | mothballed 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Motivation requires incentive. Probably hard to do when you're a communist bureaucrat offering an extra potato. |