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cogman10 6 hours ago

The big thing I fear about this sort of destruction is that it takes a very long time for tree bearing fruit to start turning a profit. That means someone that wants to plant new trees needs to do so with the notion that they won't get any sort of return on investment for a decade.

My fear is that institutional farming does not have the long term fortitude to ever start growing a tree bearing crop. Once these trees are destroyed, they are gone for good regardless how the demand shifts.

A downturn of 2 or 3 years or crazy political maneuvers which kill off exports puts access to these fruit in jeopardy. And once they are out of the diet, it's very hard to get them reintroduced. That's a big part of the reason why the US has such a limited fruit diet in the first place (the other being that many fruits are very hard to ship).

nradov 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's so weird for you to be fearful of something when you don't know how farming works. Every year farmers cut down a bunch of trees and plant new ones in response to costs and market demand. So what. This is routine and seldom makes the news.

Canned fruit, like what these farmers were producing, has been losing popularity for years. You can't force consumers to like it.

orwin 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Every year farmers cut down a bunch of trees and plant new ones in response to costs and market demand

I'll admit my experience is more with vineyard than orchards, but at least for grape, this isn't true. You only cut down old, unproductive vines, and market demand is not a factor. You never know how much you will produce YoY, so basically you try to only produce what your domain can handle. (The english translation for the following will be rough i realize).

On the "planting" side, you're wrong: a limited stock of "rootstock" (if this is the correct translation of "porte-greffe") is produced each year. As those are specific to a certain type of soil and take time to grow, you don't produce a ton each year. And vines "rootstock" are _a lot_ easier to grow than other trees (you have a mother-vine that you don't prune, you bury its branch in the soil, and over a year it will develop roots). My guess is that for orchards, your rootstock should take 3-4 years, so it isn't that easy.

nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Grape vines have a longer productive lifespan than most fruit trees so I don't know what point you're trying to make. Lots of wine grape vines are being torn out in California. Competition is intense, we're well past "peak wine" (consumers aren't drinking as much), and honestly a lot of it was kind of garbage anyway.

cogman10 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, not typically. And I know this because I grew up around farmers and farmers that had orchards. Trees would be cut down and replaced, usually if the tree was sickly. But not because this year plums are doing better on the market.

As I said, trees take a long time to bear fruit. It's not typical that a farmer will cut down a tree in their orchard in response to market pressure as that tree represents a huge investment.

If that were the case, then why are there so many peach trees currently? Why hasn't the entire orchard been replaced with olive trees?

Do you actually have farming experience?

nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, I actually have farming experience. Farmers aren't naive about this stuff. They forecast future trends as best they can and will replace trees (or other crops) when it seems profitable. Newly planted fruit trees will generally start producing within a few years and output increases as the trees grow, then eventually levels off and declines as they age. A tree is just another capital asset with a limited lifespan. Much ado about nothing.

cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Ok, then I'll just reissue my 2 questions

> If that were the case, then why are there so many peach trees currently? Why hasn't the entire orchard been replaced with olive trees?

I agree, that farmers forecast and switch up crops. But I disagree with you that you have a bunch of farmers that have mixed orchards setup because of that forecasting. It's not like wheat or barely where you could switch between the two even mid year if you were crazy enough.

I'd also point out that the first fruiting isn't exactly a bumper crop. It takes several more years after that first fruiting before you get to the point where a tree is fully productive.

nradov 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're not making any sense. I never claimed that a bunch of farmers have mixed orchards. Some farmers have too many peach trees right now because Del Monte got their forecasts wrong so now those farmers will chop down the peach trees and probably plant something else. Olive oil demand is still trending up so that might be a possibility in some cases, there are lots of options. That's just how farming works: you have to place your bets and then work for years to see if they pay off.

cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> I never claimed that a bunch of farmers have mixed orchards.

You claimed

> Every year farmers cut down a bunch of trees and plant new ones in response to costs and market demand.

What do you mean responding to "costs and market demand"?

You also claimed

> They forecast future trends as best they can and will replace trees (or other crops) when it seems profitable.

Both those statements would imply that you have orchard farmers who are growing and harvesting multiple types of crops. Unless you are trying to say that it's common for a fruit farmer to completely destroy an orchards and replace with with a new crop.

Both, frankly, are ridiculous claims which are quickly dispatched with "Why aren't there more olive trees".

If the reaction to market forces was that fast, the expectation is that last 10 years of raised olive prices would have caused a lot of these farmers to uproot and plant olive trees. It's currently a very lucrative crop and California is certainly amenable to growing olives.

> That's just how farming works: you have to place your bets and then work for years to see if they pay off.

I agree with this statement. Farming is a game of placing bets on the future of the market. But I disagree that orchard farmers are commonly just diving head first into switching crops in any sort of fashion. It takes a severe event, like their primary distributor going bankrupt, to move an orchard farmer towards new crops. That is not common or business as usual.

kaitai 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Agree with the other commenter that there is no implication of mixed orchards in their comments.

It is commonplace to decide that a particular plot of land needs to be either maintained or moved to production of another crop. When those production change decisions are made, it is in response to an assessment of the market and the properties of the plot of land. (The assessment may be wrong or short sighted of course.)

nradov 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're still not making any sense. If you drew some sort of implication about mixed orchards then you really need to work on basic reading comprehension.

cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Then explain what you meant.

I contend this is not "routine and seldom makes the news." and I back that up by claiming that it's uncommon for orchard farmers to change crops.

What part of that doesn't make sense?

mvdtnz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Did you not read the linked article? There are so many peach trees because the farmers were contracted to grow and sell the peaches to Del Monte.

New orchards of various crops are planted every day, I don't know why you think this doesn't happen in the modern age.

bsder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Canned fruit, like what these farmers were producing, has been losing popularity for years. You can't force consumers to like it.

Has canned fruit actually lost popularity? Or did the grocery stores decide that the shelf space had a higher profit margin pushing something else?

The last couple of times I tried to get canned fruit for a recipe I had to actively hunt for the particular cans of fruit I needed (I needed to hit 3 different grocery stores).

I haven't tracked peaches recently, but I can tell you that canned apricots have been a bit thin on the ground for at least a couple of years.

majormajor 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Has canned fruit actually lost popularity? Or did the grocery stores decide that the shelf space had a higher profit margin pushing something else?

> The last couple of times I tried to get canned fruit for a recipe I had to actively hunt for the particular cans of fruit I needed (I needed to hit 3 different grocery stores).

> I haven't tracked peaches recently, but I can tell you that canned apricots have been a bit thin on the ground for at least a couple of years.

Groceries stores with canned fruit being harder to find is entirely consistent with it being less popular. Pushing you to go to another store for something is bad, if you're a grocery store. That's a great way to drive off customers. There's a lot of shelf space at my local grocery stores still dedicated to fairly-redundant products or high amounts of extra copies of items, so I don't think they're being pushed out because something else is way more profitable. (My local stores have much larger selections of canned beans than canned peaches, for instance.)

I think it's just generational trends. Generally health-conscious consumers these days are more skeptical of canned vs fresh, and non-health-conscious have more junk food options than ever. It's also gotten easier to source fresh fruit across seasons than thirty or forty years ago, further squeezing canned options.

ac29 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Has canned fruit actually lost popularity?

Compared to Del Monte's heyday in the previous century? Absolutely.

A remarkable amount of fruit is available all year, or most of the year now. I cant imagine eating canned fruit by choice.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
ahepp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you don’t trust farmers to make the decision, who do you think should be making it?

peyton 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

TFA mentions 20-year contracts between Del Monte and farmers. That seems to have worked so well that we have too many peach trees. Like, to me the present situation itself should assuage your fears. Are you thinking another processor/distributor won’t come along in the future with long-term contracts? Where will they get their peaches?

cogman10 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Are you thinking another processor/distributor won’t come along in the future with long-term contracts?

That's exactly what I'm thinking. There are few crops where someone might want to lock in a 20 year contract. It's a major gamble for all involved. It's a gamble for the distributor because tastes might shift in 20 years (almost certainly a big part of why Del Monte went bankrupt) and it's a risk for the farmer because it's not clear that another distributor will look at these farms and think "You know what, I can pick up where that company went bankrupt".

> Where will they get their peaches?

Will they get peaches? That's really the question. They might just decide it's too unpopular and the price would have to be too high to support selling peaches.

Del Monte was a big reason why peaches are available. Similar to how Dole is a big reason we have bananas year round. If Dole goes bankrupt, we likely won't see bananas on the shelves. And we know this because there's more than just 1 variety of banana in the world. We have access to only 1 because there's only one distributor of bananas in the US.

We are moving into an era of private equity doing fast turn around profits on everything. The old way of business thinking that you can have a 20 year contract is likely dying. 1 year contracts are going to be much more likely because that's where a lot of the investment is going. And Del Monte is the poster child for why a business would shy away from doing a 20 year contract.

rootusrootus 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> We have access to only 1 because there's only one distributor of bananas in the US.

Aren't there 3, at least? Dole, Chiquita, and Del Monte?

ssl-3 3 hours ago | parent [-]

In the US, there's at least that many.

I've also bought Fyffes bananas [in the US] in recent times; those probably came from Aldi.

The more diverse ethnic marketplaces surely have other sources. They've got their own ways of doing stuff. :)

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The bananas I buy at Aldi are not Dole. Unless Dole sells under different brand names. But Dole is obviously the big player.

vasco 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> That means someone that wants to plant new trees needs to do so with the notion that they won't get any sort of return on investment for a decade

Peach trees take 2-3 years to bear fruit specially with grafting.

cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Stone fruit (like peaches) are all typically grafted. And that 2 to 3 years is when the trees first fruit, not when you get a full harvest from the tree. The 10 to 20 years is when the tree is fully mature and producing it's max amount of fruit.

That first fruiting you are looking at something like 2 or 3 lbs of fruit. Full grown you are looking at about 20 lbs of fruit yearly.

You can push up maturity by using a dwarf root stock and get to full fruiting in 6 to 8 years.

vasco 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't say you'd get full harvest at 2 years, otherwise I don't think anything we've both said is incompatible

cogman10 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That's fair, I was mostly trying to point out that the first fruiting is very much not something you could really count on for a profit. You wouldn't want an orchard filled with trees that are first fruiting.