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jespinel 4 hours ago

IMO, this is one of the main strengths of the US: you have 50 different options to live according to your values and beliefs, and relatively little friction if you decide to move to a state that better reflects them.

roumenguha 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People make tradeoffs when it comes to where to live. You can surely move, but that assumes you have the financial means (if finding a new job is possible for you and your partner, and your children aren't at a point in their lives where moving would be detrimental), the support system, the friend circles, the third spaces and accompanying social systems, the kind of nature and access to that nature that you've grown used to.

Yes, there are 50 states. But besides some superficial differences, they tend to cluster in terms of policy. So, as a state slides further towards one extreme, it's not easy to decide which straw will break the camel's back. Because it could always be worse elsewhere, and is it really worth the trouble?

jnovek 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think people who aren’t or haven’t been poor often don’t realize that moving to another state — or even away from your hometown — is a privilege that is cost prohibitive for many Americans.

dylan604 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is definitely something lost in an echo chamber like HN. Moving out of state is quite expensive. Most jobs do not provide moving expenses as a perk of the new job and receiving them shows just how privileged you are. For the foreseeable future the fuel costs of moving will also contribute to that expense making it worse. Some family connections make it very difficult for some to break away. For those that can, it is hard to understand.

djeastm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>relatively little friction

That word "relatively" is doing a lot of work in this phrase. 50 options sounds great until you think about the realities of it. As someone who's moved around a half dozen times, shared "values and beliefs" pales in comparison to the practical concerns of jobs, family, climate.

nostrademons 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A lot of people underestimate the effect of shared values and beliefs on their happiness, though, and would be better served by taking a lower-paying position to live in an area that fits their values better.

Rekindle8090 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

f1shy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Still easier to move country inside the EU, as an example.

3 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
chrisweekly 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What? That seems highly improbable. Moving to a different US state is pretty trivial.

kstrauser an hour ago | parent [-]

Right? That's a ludicrous assertion. Here's what's required to move somewhere else within the US:

1. Move.

At some point, you have to get a new driver's license in your new state and transfer your car registration there to use their license plate instead of your old state's. Those are "mechanical" paperwork transactions, though. You show up at the Department of Motor Vehicles with proof of your new address and they scowl at you and then issue the new one. You don't have to ask permission: so long as you meet the local requirements to do those things (like pass the local driving test, have a car that passes the appropriate inspections), and have the right paperwork (like proof of address, proof of ownership of the car, etc.), you'll get it. And that's the "hard" part.

I've moved between states multiple times. With the sole exception of car-related stuff, the only difference between moving between a different apartment in the same complex and moving across the country is that you have to pay your taxes somewhere different the next year.

Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and relatively little friction if you decide to move to a state that better reflects them.

True when compared to emigrating to another country, which is much harder than most assume.

Moving is extremely disruptive if you have a lot of family and friends nearby, though. You go from having a huge community and social circle to almost nothing. Maybe some work friends to begin seeding a new social life, but everything has to be rebuilt.

This is why “if you don’t like it, you can leave” (the parent commenter didn’t claim this, I’m being it up separately) is not a good argument for tyrannical government decisions that get imposed on citizens of a location. They are invested in that place and have built lives there. Telling them to abandon it all and start over somewhere else is not a reasonable response. Some things have to be fought.

Ajedi32 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fair point, though I still think it's a pretty good backstop if the worst thing a tyrannical government can do to you is force you to move 100 miles.

r14c 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For context, states within 100mi of Salt Lake City are:

- Wyoming

- Idaho

100mi doesn't get you into the population center of either state. the western US is BIG, really you're talking like 1k miles to get anywhere that's meaningfully different from utah. Depending on where you live in utah, that might not get you out of the state either.

lxgr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Also, how high are the chances that these two states will never pass similar laws?

As far as I can tell for similar laws (e.g. age verification), once one state moves ahead on some controversial issue and gets away with it at the Supreme Court level, others follow suit very quickly, and then your odds quickly go to 50:50 when you thought you were picking out the best of 50.

nostrademons 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Colorado is 150 miles away as the crow flies, and Nevada is 120 miles.

It's true that both cases will get you to parts of the state that are probably more conservative than Salt Lake City, or in Nevada's case, have literally nothing there. But Boulder is about an 8 hour drive from Salt Lake City, and has a dramatically different culture and political climate. If you look at past instances of people fleeing political repression, most of them would be thrilled to be able to drive a day without crossing a national border and live in a completely different situation.

magicalist 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where are you moving to 100 miles from Salt Lake City?

jermaustin1 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I hate slipper slope arguments, but the march to tyranny is a very shallow slope of ice. Tomorrow it's "move 100 miles." Next year it's "pay $100 for the exit toll." In 2030 it's "we only allow 100 people to exit per day."

Ajedi32 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, this doesn't work in sovereign nations, only in federalism where there's a federal government that can guarantee some minimal set of freedoms to everyone (like the freedom to move to another state without impediment). Otherwise you just get the Berlin Wall.

Barrin92 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The fact that moving is looked at this way, rather than as a chance for transformation is one of the biggest reasons for the current day malaise. Intra-country movement is in most of the developed world at an all time low, yet it's one of the most straight forward ways to change your life.

Culturally, especially in the US, the idea of packing up your bags, going somewhere else, or even to a new frontier used to be a big part of its appeal even and national identity. This isn't in contrast to fighting for things, in fact people do neither and that's probably related because both involve a level of risk and starting over that's now entirely foreign.

Especially in a world that is changing as fast as ours does now not being able or unwilling to start new or reinvent yourself is a big problem. It was the internal superpower of the US compared to other countries that it had so many people who were just willing to go and build a city, or even a state or a new religion somewhere just for the sake of it.

0xbadcafebee 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[delayed]

__turbobrew__ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a Canadian citizen, this is one of the things I envy about the USA the most: having 50 different choices. There is currently a lot of tension in Canada between provinces like Alberta and Quebec which want very different things but are bound by the same set of laws. In Canada you are given some choice regarding geography (although the vast majority of population lives within 100km of the southern border, so in reality if you want to live in a city there isn’t much choice), but very little choice when it comes to laws and general governance.

I personally would love to live in a western state like oregon, arizona, or new mexico where I feel like there is an appropriate balance between freedom, geography, and government for my lifestyle.

3 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That mostly works when you're single and without any hard ties.

Uprooting a well grown tree isn't easy.

mothballed 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There's also some double standards. If you walk from Ecuador to Texas, passing through the Darien Gap and one of your kids gets ripped into some river never to be seen again, finally showing up in El Paso to sleep under a bridge until the heat exhaustion goes away, then you are a glorious immigrant who put it all on the line to give your family a better life.

If you hitch-hike from California to Vermont while feeding your kids whatever rats and river water you can dredge up and then set up a tent in the forest until you can score a job at Dollar General, then you are an evil neglectful bastard and the state will be on your ass and take your kids away.

You might be better off actually moving countries if you are broke. Because for whatever reason it is better tolerated because you can just say you were broke and your children went through hard times because the last country was evil or something.

rexpop 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you are a glorious immigrant who put it all on the line to give your family a better life

According to whom?

The immense hardship endured by migrants isn't a badge of glory, but the direct result of a global economic system designed to extract wealth from the global south to enrich the global north.

The current economic disparity between the United States and the countries to its south is not an accident. The wealth of the United States, like much of the Western Hemisphere, was built on a foundation of 500 years of ongoing theft—specifically through the colonization and theft of indigenous lands, and the mass kidnapping and wage theft of the Atlantic slave trade. The governments and agencies that now police the borders are institutions built on this stolen land.

The US imposition of NAFTA allowed heavily subsidized American agribusiness giants to flood the Mexican market with cheap corn, which decimated Mexican agricultural communities, drove small farmers off their land, and triggered massive waves of migration.

In Central America, the CIA sponsored the 1954 coup in Guatemala to overthrow a government that was attempting land reforms that threatened the profits of the American-owned United Fruit Company. The US government also heavily funded brutal military regimes in El Salvador and Guatemala that committed massacres and genocide against their own citizens. The US government effectively bankrolled the destruction of these countries, and then militarized its border to punish the survivors fleeing the devastation.

The migrant walking from Ecuador is not a "glorious immigrant" immune to state violence; they are treated as walking meat by human trafficking cartels and hunted by authorities.

mothballed 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Name a single case of a parent being prosecuted for negligence, or even having their children taken away by the state for the dangers endured in the Darien Gap. They are treated like kid gloves compared to how a US parent is treated if they exposed their children to such risks in moving. No one is claiming the US didn't fuck up South/Central America, your point there is a red herring (US also spent hundreds of years stealing from its own poor too, and especially the slaves who might be the ancestors of those looking to move, so join the club).

It's not that they haven't suffered risks and dangers and "500 years" of historical grudges. It's that the main risk a broke American parent has of moving their children while broke is that they're going to run afoul of negligence and abuse laws of the US that don't allow you to live in the rough while hopping freight trains or however broke people are crossing the continent. If your kids get ripped away in a river you are going to jail, if you're caught living in tents in the forest or desert then child services is going to be contacted. Immigrants get to bypass this on the way to the US -- if their children dies in a river in the Darien it either gets ignored by greater society or written in a news blurb about how brave and unfortunate they were (maybe alongside your sad story about NAFTA -- your sob story narrative makes my point). This means they can actually move while broke and they might actually be able to get away with it in the eyes of the state.

Swoerd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

washingupliquid 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

rootusrootus 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For Californians, or everyone else?

dan353hehe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm guessing you have never driven though Nevada.

washingupliquid 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> driven

Yes, unlike the Darien, Nevada has a few roads for the Californians to sneak in and out.

swsieber 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> relatively little friction if you decide to move to a state that better reflects them.

Yes, moving is possible, and easier than switching countries. But the biggest strength of the U.S. is not that people can move, but that the blast radius is contained. The strength is being able to think later "I'm glad we didn't try that everywhere at once." The strength is being able to experiment, not necessarily have states aligned to with all there residents needs within a certain threshold.

kstrauser 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is when some states get full of themselves and try to regulate wants to remove the right for local kids to see adult content by pushing complex, unmeetable requirements onto all 50 states. Texas wants to block the other 49 from sending Federally-legal medicines to Texas residents. In general, "small government" states spent a lot of time and effort making other states implement their local experiments.

If Utah wants a firewall, they can erect one at their borders. It's crazy of them to expect everyone else to do their work for them.

fearmerchant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That and we can observe how certain policies play out. I used to be a big decriminalize drugs guy but watching it play out in a few states has had me rethink that idea. I haven't done a 180 or anything but it is something I'd be more cautious about implementing.

yalogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In theory yes, but it’s not applicable to the vast majority of people. You have to be musk or bezos to have that flexibility.

Even then as you see with the abortion ban, the folks on that side will not be satisfied without a federal level policy and they are just whittling away state by state.

ramesh31 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>IMO, this is one of the main strengths of the US: you have 50 different options to live according to your values and beliefs, and relatively little friction if you decide to move to a state that better reflects them.

Also a weakness. Utah, one of the most stunningly beautiful states in the union, is completely under the grip of a regressive theocracy that has controlled nearly every aspect of life there for over a century. Really sucks.

aworks an hour ago | parent [-]

I've visited various parts of Utah in the last year. It doesn't particularly reflect my life choices and I doubt I would ever move there. But their cultural values seem to have resulted in a prosperous state compared to most other Mountain West states (or even most Midwestern states).

I think it's also doing well re: reproductive rate. I expect it to continue be a thriving place for years to come.

f1shy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AFAIK only Swiss and USA have a real federal estate. Good thing.

dgellow 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What do you mean by real? Germany, Russia are federation, what makes them not real ones?

soulofmischief an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IN addition to everything else said downstream of your comment, I want to point out that there is a recent trend of legislation quickly being introduced across several states at once, as evidenced by the rash of "social media" teen bans and such.

It is unrealistic for many to move states or live in their ideal state, but we don't even live in the "50 different options" world anymore.

Corporate and NGO interest groups are seeing to it that your politicians and journalists are controlled from the municipal to national levels. Tribal two-party politics has reduced our world to "red" and "blue" states, and plenty authoritarian legislation has bipartisan support.

You also can't just keep playing whack-a-mole and uprooting your entire life each time a state you considered safe suddenly introduces legislation you disagree with.

Some would even argue that it isn't very patriotic to flee a community and allow it to rot instead of participating in its liberation.

Additionally, some of these "50 different options" should not exist, and only exist because of US colonialism and economic exploitation.

add-sub-mul-div 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's true in principle, but there's a lot of people trapped in red states who in a practical sense don't have the means to leave. I'm privileged to not have to worry about that friction, but I never forget that others do.

__turbobrew__ 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There are lots of people “trapped” in blue states too, if that is how you want to put it.

jasonlotito 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, but the trapping is far different.

The "red" people in blue states are opposed to the freedoms people in blue states have, while the "blue" people in red states are denied freedoms people in blue states have.

So, while people are "trapped" in blue states, they generally aren't suffering by being denied rights.

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Blue states are mostly states with large coastal cities, and thus larger incomes.

giantg2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You seem to forget that those states tend to have rural (red) populations that get affected by the laws the larger population in the cities pass at the state level.

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is true. I just mean that moving becomes less hard if you earn more due to the general higher level of wages in your area near a big and prosperous city.

giantg2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, but that doesn't work if you're in the scenario we are talking about - red person in a rural part of a blue state. They will still have restricted income.

rootusrootus 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am trying to think of examples of blue state majorities oppressing rural populations.

Allowing gays to marry if they want, does that count as oppressing rural Christians?

nostrademons 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It usually takes the form of rules and regulations that are well-intentioned in a big city but make zero sense in a self-reliant community of 100 people that all know each other.

ADA regulations are good example, and also a common punching bag of the rural right in a blue state. Making sure everything is handicapped-accessible is important in a restaurant in San Francisco with a visitor pool of about 7 millions. It makes zero sense when it is the only restaurant in a town of 100, none of whom are disabled*. Nobody's available to build the necessary accommodations, and nobody's going to use them.

Gun regulations too. When you come in contact with thousands of people routinely and some of them might wish to kill you, limiting the ability to buy guns is important. When hunting and scaring off wild animals is a large part of your lifestyle, you can go a week without seeing another human, and the local police department takes 2 hours to get to you? Now you're just taking away essential tools for survival.

giantg2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you actually want to look at this seriously, check out things like gun control, VA's redistricting, etc.

gosub100 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not really. Show me a state that can tax corporate landlords or charge a fee for private equity owned 'anything'.

Show me a state that will invalidate the "mandatory arbitration" clauses and let me sue Google (in small claims court) if they lock me out of my account or falsely take down my video on copyright grounds. You won't find that because it's impossible.

There are minor differences between states, like gun or drug ownership. Or various tax levels. But that's about it.

mothballed 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately the 10th amendment has been undermined by disingenuous readings of the commerce clause and other fuckery, and states and people have whatever scraps of power congress / the feds don't feel like asserting. If you don't like it, well, lol, the civil war established the states cannot check federal power by seceding and as we are witnessing the sky is rapidly becoming the limit.

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There's still plenty of difference between e.g. Texas and California.

There ought to be some significant level of cohesion between constituent states in a federation (like the US or India) or even a confederation (like the EU or Switzerland), else the common market and the common law system won't be able to function. It should not be overdone though.

SilverElfin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure but there’s also a constitution. And inhibiting speech and expression by attacking anonymity and privacy is a violation.

Of course, SCOTUS may not see it that way. But clearly this is an imposition of the age verification strategy in project 2025, which is meant to be an imposition of Christian religious values on everyone.