It's an interesting piece. Makes one think about all those folks that have a lot of pride and vanity for a place that they had no control over being born in. The luck of the draw.

And very likely had very little to do with the current state of the place. Pride at age 21? Meaningless vanity, like being proud of being born with a silver spoon. Pride at age 80? Sure, if it was a life well-lived.

▲ gopperl 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs. It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors who have, over countless generations, toiled and strived to deliver the place that we were so fortunate to inherit from them. It reminds us of our responsibility to defend and improve that place for the coming generations of our people.

▲ ninjagoo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

  > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs.

Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?

You did not choose your parents, country, ancestry, class, era, genes, language, or inherited institutions. You may be inseparable from those facts, but you did not earn them.

  > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents
  > we were so fortunate to inherit from them.

These two statements appear to be contradictory.

  > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors

And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride?

You have to be careful to not fall into the trap of borrowed glory: treating an ancestor’s achievement as your own personal merit, or using ancestry to rank yourself above others.

  > toiled and strived to deliver the place that we were so fortunate to inherit
  > our responsibility to defend and improve that place for the coming generations of our people.

Are you implying that the place belongs more fully to descendants of earlier inhabitants than to newer members of the community?

So then Native Americans have a stronger claim than European descendants? Or is that a standard to only be applied moving forward?

That's also like the caste system in India: only children of brahmins can be brahmins, children of shudras can only be shudras. One is superior to another by inheritance, not merit.

That's ugly and abhorrent.

  > It is right to be proud of the achievements of your ancestors

Are you then also ashamed of their crimes?

▲ gopperl 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?

My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

>you did not earn them

My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors. Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. We earned them.

>These two statements appear to be contradictory

Only if you believe such things to be due to purely random chance. I can feel 'fortunate' that my parents got me the bike I really wanted for Christmas, but there's no randomness in my parents working overtime and budgeting responsibly that made it possible.

>And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride?

I am a part of the same collective, the long and continued story of my people. I am proud of those who came before me.

>You have to be careful to not fall into the trap of borrowed glory

You have to be careful not to fall into the trap of nihilistic individualism. You are part of something much bigger than yourself. Be suspicious of anyone trying to sever your connection to your people and your history.

>Are you implying that the place belongs more fully to descendants of earlier inhabitants than to newer members of the community?

That makes sense, yes. To your example, I would say that Native Americans have very little claim to the modern USA as practically everything was built by Europeans. They failed to defend their lands and were successfully conquered. In the same way, it would be absurd in my view for the majority non-White population of London (almost all of whom are very recent colonisers) to gaze around at the infrastructure and architecture and think "We made this."

>Are you then also ashamed of their crimes?

Sure, but not nearly as ashamed as our enemies would like us to be. Isn't it funny how we are supposed to recoil in shame and horror with the constant reminders of the worst parts of our people's history, yet we are condemned for also proudly owning our best?

▲ ninjagoo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

  >> Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born?
  > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

But not you

  >> you did not earn them
  > My parents did. Their parents did. My children will.

But not you

  > Everything I have today has been hard-earned by my ancestors.

But not by you

  > Everything my children have will be hard-earned by my ancestors and I. *We* earned them.

LoL

▲ arduanika 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's an interesting piece.

If you're twelve years old, maybe.

> The luck of the draw.

This is a core tenet of the Rawlsian religion, of which you are a (probably unwitting) fanatic. If you like questioning things so much, you should question why this thing you take for an eternal fact had to be invented in 1971, and what exactly it is propping up.

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ninjagoo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> This is a core tenet of the Rawlsian religion, of which you are a (probably unwitting) fanatic.

Ouch. How warped does one's thinking have to be to call "A theory of justice" (1971) for pluralistic, democratic societies, a "religion"?

It seems to me that right-wingers love hyperbole and rhetoric, without addressing the meat of the matter.

Your post is no different, being entirely free of reason. A good day to you, Sir.

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arduanika an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Fair enough. How dare I question your thing that's not a religion. I must be warped.

Still, aren't you at least a little bit curious? Why did it have to be invented in 1971? What is it replacing?

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