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periodjet 9 hours ago

Banksy is the patron saint of the “I’m 13 and this is deep” mentality.

TehCorwiz 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Blinded by nationalism" I don't know, seems like a clear concise message that has relevance in today's world.

miketery 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why nationalism? A flag can represent more than a nation. Can be blinded by any "flag" / ideology.

wrxd 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Since last summer a lot of flags appeared all over the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Raise_the_Colours https://manchestermill.co.uk/the-men-who-raised-the-flags/

philk10 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I went back to England last year and couldn't believe how many flags there were, I was shocked and not in a good way

nephihaha 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Every criticism levelled at the St. George's Cross can be levelled at the Union Jack. It is time people in England had a healthier relationship with their flag, more like Scotland and Wales, and less like Northern Ireland.

actionfromafar 7 hours ago | parent [-]

St. George's Cross is football brawls and "England uber alles". Union Jack is stiff upper lip and kicking nazis out of Europe.

nephihaha 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It was the flag of the British Empire with all that entails. It is to be found all over the loyalist areas of Northern Ireland and on Orange Marches. It has appeared in umpteen far right demos, and in fact if you look at 1970s far right footage you can see it is the flag they most commonly carry in the UK not the St. George's Cross.

Oh, and you'll find it at plenty of football matches, notably Glasgow Rangers, who fly it while singing songs about wanting to be "up to our knees in Fenian blood".

adolph 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The ambiguity is part of the charm. Something that reveals more about the beholders than the artist makes for stimulating conversation and discovery.

Even the new positioning of the art on a plinth in some open space is enigmatic. If it were a critique of the powers that be, why would officialdom collaborate in propping it up?

appreciatorBus 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because officialdom is largely populated by wokists who fancy themselves as rebels.

jerkstate 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

why indeed

delusional 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interpretations, in my art?

Seriously, this is part of the fun of art. Neither of you are wrong for reading different messages into it.

appreciatorBus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly.

Communists are blinded by the flag with the hammer and sickle.

Teachers and doctors are blinded by trans ideology and its flag.

Examples abound, but wanna transgressor blanksy knows who butters his bread.

MattGaiser 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Flags overwhelmingly represent nations, groups considering themselves nations, that were nations or have some kind of individual governmental status.

lucketone 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nations != governments.

“Nations” as synonym for country started appearing only recently, in last two/three hundred years.

Flags have thousands of years of history.

kergonath 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Flags also represent causes, or groups that don’t aspire to becoming a nation.

nephihaha 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They don't at all. Consider for example that every single city, county and local council in the UK has a flag. There are flags for the United Nations, the European Union, Esperanto, every major football team and most political movements including the CND and anarchism.

socalgal2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do you know it's "blinded by nationalism"? There are plenty of non-national flags which are just as blinding

weavejester 4 hours ago | parent [-]

In the UK there's been a recent spate of nationalist flag flying. Given the artist and location, "blinded by nationalism" is the most likely intended meaning.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is it though? This can mean anything. Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag? Where do we draw the line between harmful and productive nationalism? Who exactly is blinded by nationalism?

It is vague enough to appear deep to those trying to find something deep but not concrete enough to appear as anything that will stick in people's minds for more than a week. Unfortunately a lot of modern art is like this.

kergonath 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag?

Waving a flag is not a problem in itself. You can be proud of being part of whatever group you like and not hurt anyone. The problem is when the flag becomes the prism through which you see the world. Or, as the statue puts it, when you’re blinded by it.

JuniperMesos 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Is it though? This can mean anything. Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as waving an Israeli flag? Where do we draw the line between harmful and productive nationalism? Who exactly is blinded by nationalism?

Clearly it depends on your actual object-level position on the Israel/Palestine conflict. Or in general, what specific nationalisms you mean when you talk about being "blinded by nationalism".

And that's the main reason why I think this is a mediocre piece of art. Very few people actually are genuinely anti-nationalist for all possible human groups that have some sense of themselves as a nation. All anti-nationalist rhetoric is implicitly aimed at a specific nationalism that someone has a problem with - and also everyone knows this. So everyone wants to use the blank slate of bansky's featureless flag as a canvas upon which to paint a nationalism they don't like in order to discredit it. And I personally think that's boring. Maybe engendering that reaction was itself part of Bansky's artistic vision, but I still don't think that makes for good art.

cm2012 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both Israel and Palestine are blinded by ideology. It is a very common failure mode for people.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[flagged]

lukan 9 hours ago | parent [-]

So ... Hamas does not want to do ethnic cleansing and attempted that a couple of times, but simply were not as powerful to have a bigger impact?

t-3 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Resistance to illegal occupation and colonization isn't ethnic cleansing, it's a legal right as ruled by every international body since Israel was formed. Totally false equivalence.

lukan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

If you want to remove a certain set of people from land (people who were born there btw.) you are engaging in ethnic cleansing. The definition is clear here.

runarberg 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When one is a colony of the other the flag of the colonized has added symbol of decolonization. The flag of the colonizers has no such symbol, quite the contrary in fact. These two flags are clearly distinct.

Krunklefrit an hour ago | parent [-]

[dead]

garyfirestorm 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

waving any flag and thinking its us or them is equally blinding. the world is not vacuum and to coexist we need to put flags behind and work together.

have_faith 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you from the UK and know what the piece is a reference to? It’s topical and unpretentious and comes at a time where the country is splintering. Feels a like a bit of a distant midwit take to take shots at the appeal it has.

andai 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Explain like I'm 13 and don't live in the UK.

dijksterhuis 8 hours ago | parent [-]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48001630

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Splintering? You have two zombie parties that are really the same in different colours. Of course people are going to vote for other parties that seem more left/right wing. Predictable consequence.

danparsonson 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Splintering because some are going one way and others are going the opposite direction. Heading to opposite extremes.

Fezzik 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most galvanizing statements have been pithy and comprehensible to 13 year olds. The general population is not doing a deep dive in to something like Thoreau’s “Resistance to Civil Government,” contemplating the proper role of government, and then getting fired up to act. We need CliffsNotes, slogans, and visible art like this.

pippy 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The irony is that the statue is being guarded by the London police.

ungreased0675 8 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s not irony. It’s a pro-establishment piece. If it was a piece about migrants raping British women Banksy would be in jail right now.

rexpop 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Found the gammon.

ryandrake 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Heaven forbid someone tries to communicate a point with art.

9 hours ago | parent [-]
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infinitewars 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it deserves credit for being both simple and original.

8 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
touwer 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, you are 14 and you understand the world? Doesn't seem like it

yakkomajuri 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It doesn't need to be super layered to be impactful?

Plus the execution is also part of the art.

CPLX 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actually it’s a great example of something different, where the person who was original and eventually becomes ubiquitous and groundbreaking and widely imitated to the point where it's hard to understand just how original they actually are.

There are many examples of the same thing: Andy Warhol and the soup cans and screen-printed portraits with different color backgrounds or Led Zeppelin and English folk hard rock songs that have hobbits in them are two of them.

Eventually, it's hard to even process their work in the context of how predictable and trite it seems to be a few decades later.

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
booleandilemma 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Account created last year, is Banksy your patron saint?

rvba 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Really riles up PE types and "patriots" though.

stavros 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This works really well these days, when the average person is 13.

TacticalCoder 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He's also king of the "I'll criticize the west but I'll turn a blind-eye to non-democratic countries' wrongdoings". A trait shared with virtually all intellectuals and artists in the west.

There are fights worth fighting: for example there are 300 million women alive who have undergone forced genital mutilation. 300 million ain't cheap change. There are also hundreds of millions of people who applauded the killing of 1200 young civilians who were enjoying life at a music festival "because it's resistance".

Applauding the killing of young unarmed civilians, genitally mutilating women and turning a blind-eye to a regime slaughtering 30 000+ of its own unarmed civilians is where I personally draw the line and consider there are maybe more important things to complain about than, say, "the patriarchal western society built by heterosexual white men" or some other woke non-sense like that.

Now to be honest Banksy did art criticizing war overall, not just war started by the west. So a generous reading could consider that he also criticizes things like the 800 000 deaths during the Hutu vs Tutsi war.

But still overall: lots of balls from western artists when it's about criticizing the west, but tiny tiny nuts when it's about, say, attacking the ideology that is responsible for 300 people enjoying music at the Bataclan and then getting slaughtered.

But these people can live with their own conscience: I speak up and I've got mine.

constantius 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's a lot of imaginary flaws in imaginary people, with imaginary numbers as scaffolding.

The moral posture you're criticising is not actually a thing, I personally don't know of any Western intellectual who criticises the West but is fine with FGM for example. But it seems that the fault you find in them is that when they criticise the West, for example, they don't also add a list of grievances against all the other countries (but surely they'd have to speak for 10 hours every time they open their mouths?).

It's also funny how you take the 30,000 Iranian civilians killed at face value, but don't talk about the wrongs of the British empire. And you didn't even mention North Korea once. You see the issue with your reqs?

bravoetch 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you making art to fill that perceived gap, or just lodging your objection to people doing their own thing? No artist owes you a curriculum of your design.

zuminator 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's a lot wrong with the world, but it seems not unreasonable for people to more strongly critique things 1) they feel they have some responsibility for or 2) that directly impact them or 3) where their criticisms are more likely to result in positive change.

delusional 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What do you want the artists to do about it? Part of art's power is shining a light on something we don't notice day to day. Most westeners are against mutilation, what would the art say?

Art will always be about speaking truth to power, and that power will usually be the one closest felt. There's not much value in a swede speaking truth to Nigerian warlords.

9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
mihaaly 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

vkou 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This criticism would carry more weight if the people this statue criticises had the intellectual and emotional maturity beyond that of a teenager.

Unfortunately, they often don't meet that bar, so the message has to be in a form they can understand.

krapp 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're being downvoted but honestly the "everyone is twelve now" meme explains our collective societal dysfunction perfectly.

There's no point to complexity or subtlety in art anymore, or even any kind of symbolism at all. Anything that needs to be interpreted, that doesn't have a single objective meaning which gets spelled out for you. Flag man is silly. Everyone is twelve now.

Lerc 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lana Wachowski has said that the Red Pill movement taught her that no matter how unsubtle you are, it's still too subtle for some people.

tialaramex 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Huh. I hadn't thought about how the "Red Pill movement" would feel for the Wachowskis, yeah, there's truly no limit to how oblivious people can be and this thread is illustrative.

toomanyrichies 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

100%. One can't advocate for the dismantling of the Dept. of Education, the tearing down of "educational elites", and the wholesale banning of books, while at the same time crying foul when people say they have the intellectual capacity of a 12-year-old.

9dev 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"They'd be pretty angry if they could read"

jiriro 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Banksy is the patron saint of the “I’m 13 and this is deep” mentality.

You are wrong.

odyssey7 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe, but in 100 years, people looking back on the current era will easily understand the work. It symbolically communicates something about the spirit of the age.