| ▲ | miketery 2 days ago |
| Why nationalism? A flag can represent more than a nation. Can be blinded by any "flag" / ideology. |
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| ▲ | wrxd 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Since last summer a lot of flags appeared all over the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Raise_the_Colours https://manchestermill.co.uk/the-men-who-raised-the-flags/ |
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| ▲ | philk10 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I went back to England last year and couldn't believe how many flags there were, I was shocked and not in a good way | | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Every criticism levelled at the St. George's Cross can be levelled at the Union Jack. It is time people in England had a healthier relationship with their flag, more like Scotland and Wales, and less like Northern Ireland. | | |
| ▲ | petesergeant 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, that's true, if you completely ignore the reality of how they're used in practice today | | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Every parish church in England (more or less) has flown the St. George's cross traditionally for as long as I can remember. There is nothing wrong with that. Conversely, Union Jacks are a major symbol of Loyalism and Orangeism in Ireland, and parts of Scotland, which is an extremely aggressive and "hands on" movement. Union Jacks can be seen in pictures of every far right movement going back a century or more. The Union Jack is a symbol of empire and colonialism which the St. George's Cross isn't. However, the football thing is more recent. If you watch "the Italian Job" from the 1960s, the England fans wave around Union Jacks instead of their own specific flag (as Scotland and Wales fans would). Clearly in the intervening years, England fans have discovered the England flag. Scottish and Welsh people seem to be a lot more comfortable with their identity than English do. And that includes their flags. I have seen countless bits of research which suggest that ethnic minorities happily identify as Scottish and Welsh in Scotland and Wales, but in England, they identify as British rather than English. I suggest you read Billy Bragg's "the Progressive Patriot". He is an English socialist who has tried to reclaim English identity from the far right, which he is entitled to. | | |
| ▲ | teamonkey 2 days ago | parent [-] | | England has a unique position in the Union, and indeed much of the world, where it is seen as an historic and current oppressive force, and our attitude to flags has to acknowledge that context. In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the Union Flag is a reminder that the UK countries are ultimately run by England, where there isn’t a true acknowledgement that the countries are culturally different, let alone able to rule themselves. Within England the St George’s Cross has become a symbol of exceptionalism and superiority, not least because it is prominently flown on nationalist and supremacist marches. Since the Union Jack includes the other countries in the Union, use of St George is often seen as a snub to the other countries. So England can’t win? No. Correctly so, IMO, because of history and context (I am English). | | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I do not consider myself English, but Scottish. I remember ?fifteen years ago defending the St. George's Cross from English people arguing against it. The irony! We do occasionally get billboards with company X saying they support England, but other than that it isn't an issue in Scotland. Like Billy Bragg says, there is a strong case for reclaiming the English flag from the far right. The Union Jack in Scotland has a much more complex history, particularly in and around Glasgow where it is connected with extreme loyalism and Orangeism (which is where a lot of the Scottish Reform party vote will come from.) In Northern Ireland, it is hated by a large section of the population. In Wales and Scotland, some independence supporters hate the Union Jack too. The Union Jack has a strong association with the far right and loyalism, not to mention imperialism and somehow gets a free pass. | | |
| ▲ | teamonkey 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The Union Flag is much more of a right-wing symbol in Scotland, as you say (I lived in Scotland for 10 years) but in England the GC is far more associated with nationalism and the right, while the Union Flag is a bit more VE Day, church fetes and Cool Britannia, and gives more of a “working together” vibe than that of oppression. Much of that is due to schooling and media conditioning, of course, but the flags mean different things to different people. | | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent [-] | | In Scotland it varies by region. In the north east and the borders, it is more innocuous although contentious. In the Central Belt around Edinburgh and Glasgow it is often linked with working class loyalism, when it's not on a hotel or a government building. |
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| ▲ | actionfromafar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | St. George's Cross is football brawls and "England uber alles". Union Jack is stiff upper lip and kicking nazis out of Europe. | | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It was the flag of the British Empire with all that entails. It is to be found all over the loyalist areas of Northern Ireland and on Orange Marches. It has appeared in umpteen far right demos, and in fact if you look at 1970s far right footage you can see it is the flag they most commonly carry in the UK not the St. George's Cross. Oh, and you'll find it at plenty of football matches, notably Glasgow Rangers, who fly it while singing songs about wanting to be "up to our knees in Fenian blood". | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | TehCorwiz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a monument style sculpture. The kind raised with public money. I think that carries part of the meaning with it versus graffiti or some other medium. It's also depicting the blinded walking off the edge, making the comment based on both the figure and the form of the statue. |
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| ▲ | adolph 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The ambiguity is part of the charm. Something that reveals more about the beholders than the artist makes for stimulating conversation and discovery. Even the new positioning of the art on a plinth in some open space is enigmatic. If it were a critique of the powers that be, why would officialdom collaborate in propping it up? |
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| ▲ | MattGaiser 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Flags overwhelmingly represent nations, groups considering themselves nations, that were nations or have some kind of individual governmental status. |
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| ▲ | lucketone 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Nations != governments. “Nations” as synonym for country started appearing only recently, in last two/three hundred years. Flags have thousands of years of history. | |
| ▲ | nephihaha 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They don't at all. Consider for example that every single city, county and local council in the UK has a flag. There are flags for the United Nations, the European Union, Esperanto, every major football team and most political movements including the CND and anarchism. | |
| ▲ | kergonath 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Flags also represent causes, or groups that don’t aspire to becoming a nation. |
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| ▲ | delusional 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interpretations, in my art? Seriously, this is part of the fun of art. Neither of you are wrong for reading different messages into it. |
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| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Exactly. Communists are blinded by the flag with the hammer and sickle. Teachers and doctors are blinded by trans ideology and its flag. Examples abound, but wanna transgressor blanksy knows who butters his bread. |
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| ▲ | inkersp 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Teachers and doctors are blinded by trans ideology and its flag. Interesting fact: the creator of the trans flag, Robert Hogge (later known as Monica Helms), used to steal his mother's underwear, then moved on to stealing random women's underwear for sexual reasons, and wrote fantasy fiction about a man marrying a child who doesn't age. | | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Five years later, he declared himself a ‘transgender woman’ and lesbian. In his 2019 memoir More Than Just a Flag, Helms describes how his obsession with presenting as a woman led to the breakdown of his marriage to his wife, Donna, after she had discovered he was hiding away family finances to purchase estrogen, women’s clothing, and to pay to attend cross-dresser conferences. https://reduxx.info/trans-pride-flag-creator-71-announces-ad... “… and lesbian” aka a male who is attracted to females, aka straight. | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unsurprising! For me, nothing has been more clarifying about the trans debate than learning about autogynophilia and realizing that most males who think they are trans are actually straight. Until recently, I had assumed they were mostly males attracted to other males, and I suspect most of the public still thinks that too. |
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| ▲ | pjc50 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Teachers and doctors are blinded by trans ideology and its flag You're going to get a bunch of downvotes, but I'm also going to take the time to personally tell you how stupid this is as well. | | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I appreciate the extra time you invested to let me know. So to return the favor, I’ll add a couple of sentences too. A year ago I would never have made such a comment. My understanding about the issues boiled down to approximately: - queer theory is some sort of reasonably academic pursuit that has something to do with gay people - trans is just gay rights 2.0; clearly anyone who has any concerns is a raging bigot Neither was a core interest of mine, but they seemed reasonable enough. However, eventually, I started reading about the topic. (I’d recommend Trans by Helen Joyce) and now I feel differently. I now think JK had it right all along – we all should (and do) have the basic human right to wear whatever we like, and to sleep with anyone who will have us. But what’s being demanded by activists and taught in schools goes far beyond that and involves real contradictions, real risks to children and zero sum trade-offs with hard fought sex specific rights for women. These issues are things we could talk about so that we all come to a better understanding and make better decisions. But instead wide swathes of officialdom are “blinded by the flag” and have decided, as I once did, that anyone who has concerns is a raging bigot. | | |
| ▲ | Ralfp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Noting that you use exclusively gender critical sources (and some very poor ones to add, like Littman's "study") while also having history of blaming "wokism", I seriously doubt you have given this subject a fair consideration. Interesingly, so called "gender critical" movement is increasingly pivoting to other conservative or plainly reactionary talking points. For example, the book you are recommending makes a thinly veilded point that "promoters of trans ideology" are rich jewish men, key figure among them being George Soros. Kishwer Falkner who was big proponent of trans people segregation during her EHRC leadership recently turned to anti abortion activism. And plenty of LGB sans TQ people I've talked to are big fans of "we are normal gays who limit our orientation to the bedroom" talking points while also leaning conservative or reactionary themselves. | | |
| ▲ | inkersp a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > For example, the book you are recommending makes a thinly veilded point that "promoters of trans ideology" are rich jewish men, key figure among them being George Soros. This is untrue. Please read the author's response to this false allegation: https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/p/a-wild-ride. | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Classic “everyone who disagrees with me is secretly a bigot and a Nazi” energy here. Nothing you’ve said actually addresses any arguments. Can you actually give a refutation of Joyce’s arguments are you going just going to stick to ad hominem? |
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